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Community Edition removed from site?

118 posts, 0 answered
  1. Nigel
    Nigel avatar
    49 posts
    Registered:
    07 Jul 2008
    07 May 2010
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    Very late in the conversation, and some very interesting points put in above. But now for my 2 cents.

    Firstly, let me say I understand completely the need to either drop CE, or limit it. I also understand from a development and maintenance point of view the expense that comes with releasing more than one version. So I understand why telerik would be looking at making just the STD version available.

    I have believed for a long time, well ever since I started using SiteFinity as my core business offering a year ago, that there needs be be a product between community and standard. As some people have pointed out, there is a market out there for the $1,200 - $1,500 website, where the $900 standard price just doesn't fit with the need for design and customization, and these sorts of clients really do not care about versioning and workflow (as nice as it would be). However if there was a product in the middle, that only offered the removal of the logo above the community version (so exactly the same as CE, but no logo requirement) for around $400, then this can fit in the pricing module

    You could limit the numbers of content pages (excluding forum, blogs etc as I would imagine that this would be a technical nightmare, and in reality, blogs do not replace the need for content pages) and this would fit nicely in SMB requirements as most sites in this bracket only have 5-15 pages anyway. More than this and it falls into a higher price bracket due to development costs anyway.

    Custom Modules MUST be allowed in all versions. This is my, and many developers, core business levelage. I have developed a suite of modules that can be plugged in when required, and this really can not be removed from the SMB version (the CE, if it even existed, could have this limitation as lets face it, it's free).

    The long and the short of it, I can live without the CE version, and have been watching the SiteFinity site intently for the last year for a licence that took the CE version, allowed the removal of the logo, but offered no STD features. Most SMB clients really do not care about the STD feature set, so convincing them to upgrade has been a uphill fight. I want these customers who are using CE to pay Telerik of the fantastic product they are using. But getting these SMB to basicily double the price of the website has lost me business (yes I have tried, and yes I have used sales people). The fact of the matter is web development is a high competition market, and the end customers really do not have a clue. Steve's post hits this on the head "I ran into this problem last week trying to get a bid..."why pay $900 when we can use wordpress for free...it's a 'CMS' "", Why because wordpres $#@$s, and SiteFinity ROCKS, but these SMB managers only see the $$$ and think apples are apples.

    I have no desire to develop in any other system other than SiteFinity. I love every (well almost every) part of the system, and developing for the system is one of the easiest, and cleanest platforms I have developed for. However at the end of the day it does not matter what I want, my target business sector is what makes the decisions, and if I can not continue to offer entry level CMS systems at $1,200 then they will go to the DotNetNuke developer across the road who can.

    I hope that internally the SiteFinity staff can come to a decision that both keeps the product maintainable, as the industry needs SiteFinity, but offers solutions to all sectors of the market, from SMB to large corporations.

    Just some quick stats, in my local region 80% of business employee less than 5 people, 17% employee up to 50 people and 3% employee more than 50. So lets keep the 80% of the market space in our sights.

    Regards
  2. Mike
    Mike avatar
    8 posts
    Registered:
    23 Apr 2009
    12 May 2010
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    I realize I'm posting a bit late here, but thought I'd add my two cents.  The main reason I'm using the community edition instead of paying for the standard edition is because the standard edition license only applies to a single domain.  My employer owns a collection of small businesses, each with its own domain.  We have four websites (each hosted separately), and each site has multiple domain names.  These sites are all relatively small, so I can't justify spending $899 on each of the sites individually, but I would gladly pay $899 or even a bit more for a license that covered all of the domains owned by my employer.  It would be nice if there were a less expensive option for multiple domains under common ownership - either a single license that covers multiple domains or a reduction in price for each additional domain (full price for the first domain, 1/2 price for the second, 1/3 price for the third, etc.).  Also, making the licenses transferable to new domains would be extremely helpful.
  3. Phill Hodgkinson
    Phill Hodgkinson avatar
    362 posts
    Registered:
    10 Nov 2004
    12 May 2010
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    The transferable option would be really nice. I just got burned as a site I completed was live for less than a month and now the company that I did the site for is filing for bankruptcy. Yes my fault for not getting them to pay for the licence up front but I had done business in the past and they always paid. This time around, I'm out of the labour costs and I can't even transfer that license to another site to try and help recoup my money, even though the domain will be disappearing from the web two months after buying the license. A lesson learned from me, but also food for thought when working with a product that has a non transferable license.

    All this aside, it's still an amazing CMS...

    Cheers,
    Phill
  4. Mike
    Mike avatar
    8 posts
    Registered:
    23 Apr 2009
    12 May 2010
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    One other thought I had was if it might be possible to somehow vary the price based on the number of developers working on each site.  It seems strange that a single developer working on a handful of small sites would be asked to pay significantly more than a team of developers working on a very large site.
  5. JoshAnderson
    JoshAnderson avatar
    9 posts
    Registered:
    26 Jul 2012
    12 May 2010
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    DNN has Community Edition
    SharePoint has SharePoint Services

    Telerik needs to have a free version as well so 

    In addition once you pay for DNN or SharePoint, you are not restricted to one domain name or site.
    I like sitefinity it is a good CMS, however Telerik is being too restrictive to where we cannot develop or test without forking out $899. They will not get my biz for CMS with these elitist tactics. They do have some of the best products. But I have seen too many companies end up in this position and fall because they get too big headed.


  6. Andy
    Andy avatar
    4 posts
    Registered:
    13 Oct 2008
    17 May 2010
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    First, sorry for the cross post on the previous thread...this is the thread I meant.
    I spent this weekend learning about the alternatives for my charity.  I have to say that there are many and that Sitefinity still seems the best for a .net developer.  Maybe that 's because I have invested so much time learning it and getting good at using it.  Having been in the software business (I have owned my own software business for years) I feel that Telerik will live to regret this.  The industry has changed dramatically in the past 20 years and Telerik has failed 2 new fronts.  They do not give much incentive to invest the time into their product and they have just killed their good will.  I manage a 25 developer force and was steering them to Sitefinity (paid version).  NO LONGER.

    I feel completely cheated.  You had a CE and now do not?!  Please someone show me another example in the past 5 years where another company actually did this and they 'succeeded'.  I am flabbergasted.

    The Telerik business model is an interesting one.  I have been a paying customer in the past and found the software a bit too 'edgy' (as in buggy) for the price and have gone with more tried and true components.  They seem a little scatter brained.  Rather than deliver something great, they decide to be everything to everyone and fail.  The removal of Sitefinity CE is probably the final blow for me.  I will invest my time in KooBoo, N2 or Umbraco rather than be a slave to the whims of Telerik.  

    Frankly, I wish all of us dedicated Sitefinity users would figure out a way to get these competing Open Source CMS systems up to the quality we all dream about.

    So as the software industry goes in a different direction I bid Telerik a final adieu and Good Luck Telerik, you are gonna need it.  I do not have the time to invest in your model since you just kicked my model in the teeth and now I have to reinvest elsewhere.


  7. Michael Josiah
    Michael Josiah avatar
    6 posts
    Registered:
    21 Nov 2007
    17 May 2010
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    Hmmm Umbraco and Kooboo looks interesting. Does anyone have experience using either of them?
  8. Andy
    Andy avatar
    4 posts
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    13 Oct 2008
    17 May 2010
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    I forgot mojoPortal too.
  9. Markus
    Markus avatar
    2763 posts
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    25 Nov 2005
    17 May 2010
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    @andy

    a) Sitefinity CE 3.7 will be around for longer
    b) One thing I am sure you can not argue - Telerik Support is the best you will ever find
    c) Who are we to tell Telerik how to go about the business
    d) I agree that there is room for improvment in the product to come
    e) I think a simple good bye from you would have done ;-)

    @JoshAndersan

    In my experiance you can test the full version without any problem. All you will see is a "you are using a trial version" once in a while. Other then that you can test it any way you want.

    @Mike
    Beein a one man show to me it would be better if the price would drop with each licence I own.

    @PhillHodgkinson
    Have you tried to talk to sales about your problem?

    @Mike
    Exactely what I have often. My Clients (mostly very small firms) do often two things with are related but different. I had one running a bike shop and drive limousine in spar time. Another fixing heating and selling Hot-tubs. So for these it would be nice if we had a "per firm" license.

    @telerik
    NPO 10% is very small discount. We have a lot of schools in Switzerland with about 150 studens. A 40% discount would be appreciated but again I do agree that Telerik needs to make money and is not a cherity organisation.

    PS: The better 4.0 is the less support is needed and you can save manpower (support will not like this statement) or have more manpower for development. So once again I rather have a 4.0 by the July 2011 that is really polished then anything fast by the end of 2010.

    Thanks to telerik for all the support you have always provided. Its simply the best support you can get.

    Regards Markus

    PS: I don't work for telerik but feel free to shred my coments :-)
  10. David
    David  avatar
    78 posts
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    29 Dec 2008
    17 May 2010
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    The main reason I like sitefinity over the other CMS listed above:  The End User's Experience.

    Once I get the site up and running, the client is able to manage their own website without bugging me as much.  Of course I train my clients on how to create, delete and edit content.

  11. Andy
    Andy avatar
    4 posts
    Registered:
    13 Oct 2008
    17 May 2010
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    Markus:

    a) Sitefinity CE 3.7 will be around for longer
    Why would I continue to invest in a dead end, closed source product?

    b) One thing I am sure you can not argue - Telerik Support is the best you will ever find
    I have had little exposure to their support, but from all the comments it must be fantastic.

    c) Who are we to tell Telerik how to go about the business
    We are their customers.  We have choices.  My usual MO is to stay quiet.  This was such an unusual event that I felt I owed it to Telerik to let them know how I felt.  If they are going to continue to be great, customers like me, who voice their dissatisfaction,  are priceless.  If the are going to be mediocre, customers like me, are a nuisance.

    d) I agree that there is room for improvment in the product to come
    Great.

    e) I think a simple good bye from you would have done ;-)
    I thought I was doing Telerik and the soon-to-be-a-much-smaller-group, Sitefinity community, a favor.  To each his own I s'pose.

    I did not intend to offend any one in any of my remarks.  The negative impact of Telerik's decision is profound to me and my charity.  BTW:  In addition to selling several businesses on Telerik Subscriptions,   I have sold 2 businesses on the paid version of Sitefinity using my reputation and my great experience with Sitefinity.  This was how I paid Telerik for the software.  I think they got their moneys worth and then some.  They deserve to understand what seems obvious to me.

    I recommend to all to read "Free: The Future of a Radical Price" by Chris Anderson.  Digital businesses are now required to move in this direction or risk doom.
  12. Gabe Sumner
    Gabe Sumner avatar
    440 posts
    Registered:
    09 Sep 2007
    17 May 2010
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    Hey everyone,

    As you might imagine, these decisions take time.  I only wanted to post to reassure everyone that we are reading and discussing every single reply to this post.  To Andy's point:

    This was such an unusual event that I felt I owed it to Telerik to let them know how I felt.  If they are going to continue to be great, customers like me, who voice their dissatisfaction,  are priceless.  If the are going to be mediocre, customers like me, are a nuisance.

    You aren't a nuisance.  We want your perspective.  This thread is already packed with great suggestions.  We're trying to find a solution that addresses our business concerns, as well as the community's concerns.  Read Vassil's post (far above) for Telerik's perspective.

    Beyond that, please understand that these conversations involve a lot of diverse people (sales, marketing, developers, management, etc.).  Each of these groups (rightfully so) have goals and responsibilities of their own.  Finding an effective solution requires us to address each of these concerns.  To do this, I can't simply show everyone Chris Anderson's book.  This doesn't effectively counter a budget, a market forecast or a sales projection report.  

    Ultimately, this is why this thread is useful.  This is giving us some of the raw numbers and specifics needed to craft a solution.  I'm not 100% in the loop on what is being chatted about lately, but I know we're trying.  Keep the feedback coming!

    Gabe Sumner
    Developer Evangelist
    Telerik | Sitefinity CMS
  13. Markus
    Markus avatar
    2763 posts
    Registered:
    25 Nov 2005
    22 May 2010
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    Since SP3 you can store images and documents now in the file system instead of the database this such a big help to me that I would miss SF so much if there would not be a small business version.

    So I sure hope Telerik will reach a decition to lauch 4.0 with a entry level version at some price.

    SF simply is the best CMS for me and it would be sad not to be able to use it anymore because clients can not pay the full version, full price.

    Regards Markus

    Thanks Telerik for superb support and great products!
  14. Andrew Wrigley
    Andrew Wrigley avatar
    63 posts
    Registered:
    01 Sep 2009
    07 Jun 2010
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    I am hooked on Sitefinity.  ALL our clients are requesting CMS and Sitefinity delivers.  It can be a bit slow, but otherwise...

    If there had not been a free edition, I would have gone with CommunityServer.  But there was, and so Sitefinity it is.

    I have no problem with paying, now that I know the product is great and serves our needs.  It adds US$ 1000 to the clients bill, but you get what you pay for.  And if some of the extra profit goes into making Sitefinity better, then everyone benefits.

    The problem I have with no community edition, is that without it, I wouldn't have 'bought into' sitefinity, and I wouldn't now be looking at other Telerik products.

    Put it this way.  A large community of users has provided Telerik with feedback.  And we have benefited from a tool that delivers functionality that our clients request. 

    So we're all happy (or should be...).

    I have a number of clients who will go with the existing community edition and who will then upgrade at some future date.  So their strategy is a good one.  For me at least.

    Andrew


  15. Gary
    Gary avatar
    1 posts
    Registered:
    23 Dec 2009
    12 Jun 2010
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    I am very excited about the new sitefinity 4.0 CMS.  It looks easy enough to customize with enough features that I might have time to build my personal website as well as integrate my learned skills to make a web site to sell my company on the product.  I am concerned that if you remove the Community Edition (CE) and/or cut it's features down too severely it may be an end of my hopes to make a rich, easy to manage, CMS enabled website.   My organization is on a tight budget atm and will not invest in a product that I cannot first sell them on.   

    It seems to me that a change to the product  licensing agreement that limits the CE product to personal and or development purposes with no redistribution privileges would solve the business needs of Telerik|sitefinity and still leave a window open for users like me who are just starting to use the product and who still need experience in customizing the product to sell an organization on its capabilities.

    Thanks,

    Gary

  16. James Reategui
    James Reategui avatar
    22 posts
    Registered:
    14 Oct 2008
    18 Jul 2010
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    Now that SF 4.0 is in beta, I found it appropriate to add in my recommendation for the licensing scheme.
    A paid for only version is fine, but if Telerik wants large adoption they should do something that Microsoft also does:

    Telerik should mirror what Microsoft does for some of their products licensing:
    We have about 20+ Windows server 2008 installations. We pay around $20 per month for each of these, and we can quickly scale up or down as client's needs arise. It makes selling easy because it is just a small fee to our clients per month instead of an upfront fee of $1029.

    How does Telerik make money?
    You should expect to equalize your gains + interest rate over about 4 years. Ie. with the current SF pricing of $720 up front (with the 20% discount that most seem to get now...) and then the $270 additional per year, over 4 years you Telerik makes: $1,530 . Divide 1530 / 48 and you get $32 / month. Now, you guys probably want to charge some interest for that financing style so you would multipy the 1530 x interest rate over 4 years at lets say 10% compounded yearly, and your monthly fee would end up at around $42...
    Or better even don't chare interest!

    I can easily sell SF for $42 / month to my clients (or less without interest :).

    We normally charge a bunch of money for this kind of business insight consulting btw, but you get it for free :)
  17. Cormac
    Cormac avatar
    11 posts
    Registered:
    02 Jun 2008
    16 Aug 2010
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    A small suggestion...
    If you do launch the limited version, you might consider offering a low priced license to upgrade from CE. You would have to assess the merits by looking at usage numbers etc but Ive outlined the idea below.

    The idea is that you could be able to upgrade existing websites running CE to the limited version for 99 euro or similar (assuming the limited version costs 200-400 dollars).

    1. Reduce versions in use: This will help reduce the amount of users of the older 'unsupported' CE system.
    2. It puts more people on the same page. By extension this will increase the amount of developers/owners using the newer system. This would improve community participation and module development, as well as expanding the market. 
    3. Generate renewed interest. It will re-introduce a large amount of one off or trial developers and site owners to the better 4.X limited version of sitefinity. They may have used Sitefinity for one site and then left it alone due to cost or functionality concerns. This could reignite their interest in Sitefinity.
    4. Apply a time limit: By applying a time limit it generates a burst of activity in 4.0.As its a bit of a jump from 3.xs the more people using it and giving feedback the better.
    5. Help the developers/sellers: By standardising the versions It would also help reduce the support time for companies/developers that manage multiple Sitefinity editions for their clients.
    6. Gives developers/sellers excuse to reengage:  It gives the developers another reason to go back to people using CE and up-sell them. Perhaps selling improvements at the same time. The time limit would help here too.
    7. Reward: It could be viewed as a reward for active CE users & charities, to upgrade the functionality of their site or reduce bugs.

    Feel free to tear the idea asunder!

    Cormac
  18. Pete Eberbach
    Pete Eberbach avatar
    2 posts
    Registered:
    17 Feb 2010
    13 Sep 2010
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    We have a copy of Community Edition that we'd like to use for a local non-profit.  Is is still OK to do so?  Does it require a license?  If so, can we still register it?

    Thanks for your time.
  19. Grisha 'Greg' Karanikolov
    Grisha 'Greg' Karanikolov avatar
    156 posts
    Registered:
    30 Nov 2016
    14 Sep 2010
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    Hi Pete,

    It is totally OK to use your copy of the Community Edition of Sitefintiy for your local non-profit. It does not require a license, you can create and deploy your website straight away. All that is required from you is to put the "Powered by Sitefinity" logo somewhere on your pages.

    Best wishes,
    Grisha Karanikolov
    the Telerik team
    Do you want to have your say when we set our development plans? Do you want to know when a feature you care about is added or when a bug fixed? Explore the Telerik Public Issue Tracking system and vote to affect the priority of the items
  20. Pete Eberbach
    Pete Eberbach avatar
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    14 Sep 2010
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    Thanks, Grisha!  We have 6 or 7 other clients using the licensed version and all love it.  Looking forward to 4.0.

    Pete
  21. Joseph
    Joseph avatar
    1 posts
    Registered:
    05 Oct 2010
    20 Oct 2010
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    The $900 price point is holding me back right now.

    I want to purchase 3 licenses, two for my own personal projects and 1 for an internal site at the university where I work. I can't afford the $1800 for two tiny personal sites and it is going to take a lot of people approving the purchase of $900 at work.    There is no way $900, or $1800 for that matter, is going to go unnoticed by the wife.  

    If the price were $399 each, there wouldn't be a problem.  It would fit under the radar at work and under the wife's radar at home.


  22. Mass Media Developer
    Mass Media Developer avatar
    3 posts
    Registered:
    20 Jan 2008
  23. bleutiger
    bleutiger avatar
    153 posts
    Registered:
    23 Oct 2008
    22 Oct 2010
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    This is good news.  However,  I am concerned about the page limitation.

    Gabe also mentions in his post

    "With Sitefinity 4.0, the Community Edition will return to its original roots.  Meaning it will only be usable for personal / non-commercial web sites.  In addition, it will be limited to a certain number of pages.  These limitations will make it a good fit for small personal web sites, but an uncomfortable fit for medium-large web sites.  (Which is what Sitefinity Standard is intended for.)"


    What about us small business owners.  I run a business that has 100 plus clients but I am the only employee.  Am I going to be forced to purchase a standard license with a significant price tag just to be able to put more pages out there.  That seems very one sided.

    If they are going to do that then they should have a "Smal Business" edition that would still remove some features like localization and workflow that are unnecessary....like the current community edition but also remove the restriction on the number of pages that you can have in your project.

    This of course would lower the price tag as well.  Maybe to half of a standard license?

    What are everyones thoughts on this?
  24. Chris
    Chris avatar
    8 posts
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    26 Apr 2010
    22 Oct 2010
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    @bleutiger

    I'm a small business owner with only about 10 clients and feel that the $900 price tag is completely reasonable.  If you have 100 clients, that should be a no brainer.  The way I look at it, is if it saves me 8 hours of work, it's worth the price.  I spend several thousands on MSDN and SQL Server, so this seems great.

    I'm more worried about the unannouced limitations for non-profits, which is why I can't proceed with working with the beta on some projects.  For example, I have one small site that has just a handful of pages, but one small non profit has about 50 or so, because they just have a bunch of small bits of content on each page.  Is the limit going to be 10 pages, 100 pages, 1000 pages?  Seems to me if the spririt of the rule is to help non commerical and not for profits, it'd be easier to not cripple the product for non profits and just set a limit of the NFP's annual budget or something like that.  A lot of software licensing works like this.

    Also I have a big issue with the license not being able to be transferrable.  I went back and forth with a sales agent way too many times, and he just wasn't understanding my scenario, which I thought was pretty clear.  My complaint was, say I come up with a pet project (e.g., www.acmewidgets.com).  I design and develop the site, and put it into production.  After a few months, I see it's not going to work, so I'd like to apply my license to another project (say, www.mynewpetproject.com).  According to the license you can't do this.  He talked a lot about associated (or some other word he used) where you can have two domains going to the same site, but I was trying to explain these are completely seperate projects, but it just wasn't sinking in.  Seems like a strange limitation, so to date I'm exploring other options (e.g., Umbraco).  Overall though, Sitefinity seems a perfect fit for my small projects that I want to get up running quickly, or easily train non technical users, so I'll be hopeful while I await the announced license structure.

  25. Cormac
    Cormac avatar
    11 posts
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    02 Jun 2008
    22 Oct 2010
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    @bleutiger

    If you have time scan down through the posts on this thread where that idea is discussed.

    Many of us hope that there is some 'inbetween' offering on the cards.
  26. Anthony
    Anthony avatar
    10 posts
    Registered:
    15 Aug 2008
    22 Oct 2010
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    Some time ago, I had to move from Sitefinity because of the $900 price tag. A price of $399 for small businesses might persuade me to try again; I moved to N2 but the documentation is non-existant.

    At any given time, we have about 3/4 new CMS clients who fit into this category and we simply cannot make money of off this at $900 a pop. Hopefully, if a new price tier comes out, it won;t be ruined by an unrealistic page limit. Allow at least 25/30 pages.
  27. bleutiger
    bleutiger avatar
    153 posts
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    23 Oct 2008
    22 Oct 2010
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    I still say the definition of small business is important and different businesses have different ways of making money as well.

    If you have 10 clients and you make $150,000 a year then maybe $900 is no big deal to you.

    If I have 100 clients and only make $20,000 a year and want to have a great cms like Sitefinity to make sure that I am spending my time on my clients and not on my website then in the grand scheme of things $900 is a much bigger deal.

    Page limitations will kill a product in my opinion.  If you can't build the site you want because you are limited to 15 pages and you can't afford a $900 license because it is too much for your budget then you are going to look for some other product that will meet your needs.

    I use both the community edition and the standard license edition and am happy with both products.  I proudly display the Sitefinity logo on all the community sites that I have helped develop.

    There has to be an in between pricing with no limitation on pages to be successful based on the amount of people that have chosen Sitefinity over other CMS's
  28. Steve
    Steve avatar
    3037 posts
    Registered:
    03 Dec 2008
    11 Nov 2010
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    So I think overall we're happy with the "pricing"

    Our issue here is with concurrent backend users.  Having only 10 for an $8000 license seems way low.  What this essentially means for us here at the university is that we're going to not make out data available as modules in the backend but instead have to craft some other admin interface for users.

    Unless this statement means that we can have more than 10 in the backend, but only 10 can be editing something...:
    "A CMS User is an individual who has access to the administrative (content management) capabilities of the SOFTWARE through a unique username and password.

    There are no restrictions on the number of CMS users who work with Sitefinity CMS as long as the number of concurrent users working with the software at any given time does not exceed the number stipulated by the license."

    I'm hoping that doesn't mean we can only have 10 logged in users anywhere (10 uses who have access to the admin area) as we're a password protected site and we'd have over 10 logged in at any given time.

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