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Community Edition removed from site?

  • Jason Irving avatar

    Posted on Jan 11, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi,

    I seems like the community edition was removed from the site. It is still available through the MS Web Platform Installer.

    Has it been discontinued?

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 12, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi Jason,

    Has [Community Edition] been discontinued?

    Kind of…    We’re transitioning in that direction.  

    Everyone who has already downloaded a community edition will still be able to do so from their account.  In addition, we will be able to manually activate community edition licenses on demand.  Lastly, existing Sitefinity Community Edition 3.x web sites will continue to run indefinitely.

    Why is Community Edition being discontinued?

    Sitefinity 4.0 (and the features it will include) are not intended or appropriate for small/hobby projects.  These are the projects addressed with Sitefinity 3.x Community Edition.  Our product roadmap was being complicated by trying to simultaneously address large projects...as well as hobby projects.

    This being said, there isn't a hard off switch and we want to do the right thing for Community Edition projects.  We'll work case by case to help.  If you have concerns, feel free to submit a ticket or contact me -> sumner@telerik.com.

    Gabe Sumner
    Evangelist
    Telerik | Sitefinity CMS

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 12, 2010 (permalink)

    So, how is the 3.7 SP2 "trial" different than the "Community Edition" ?
    Are they the same thing?
    If they aren't, how would somebody obtain the old "Community Edition"?

    If the "Community Edition" IS being completely discontinued (in the very near future), is the plan to NOT have a true free "hobby" edition any longer??

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 12, 2010 (permalink)

    > So, how is the 3.7 SP2 "trial" different than the "Community Edition" ?

    The trial is the full version of Sitefinity but, if I recall, it displays random "this is a trial" messages if run on a non-local domain.

    > If they aren't, how would somebody obtain the old "Community Edition"?

    I believe existing accounts can still access the Community Edition.  New accounts will no longer have this option.  In some cases we might make the old Community Edition available to new customers on a private/limited basis. 

    > If the "Community Edition" IS being completely discontinued (in the very near future), is the plan to NOT have a true free "hobby" edition any longer?

    Correct, that is the eventual plan.

    Gabe Sumner
    Evangelist
    Telerik | Sitefinity CMS

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 12, 2010 (permalink)

    That's a little unfortunate

    What about a hobby price for 4.0?  So full 4.0 use with no support for a low price perhaps?

    I like to make SF sites for friends or other small projects (personal site too)....but I can't pay $900 for a personal site, the wife would KILL me :)

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 14, 2010 (permalink)

    This is really sad news and I fear it will be the demise of Sitefinity, especially for me! I have yet to deploy a community edition site so why do I care if it's disappearing? Because based on what you're saying (and I'm reading a bit between the lines) I worry that the 4.0 price tag is going to go up dramatically. I love SF and have been keen to see what's in store for 4.0. One of the things that makes SF so great is the price point and features and value for the $ spent. I'm a developer who targets clients who need a middle tier CMS, and if SF (specifically v. 4) is not suitable for small sites than it is a sad day.

    A few years back Telligent took over the open source project  "asp.net forums" and their first couple versions were polished improvements over the open source version. The product is now Community Server, something that has a serious price tag, beyond the budgets of most of the people and clients who supported the company and product in the early days.

    I truly fear this may be a path Telerik is on with Sitefinity by axing the Community Edition. I'm not jumping ship right now but I'm definitely going to go back to investingating some open source solutions again so I'm prepared for what may come.

    Please reconsider if you can, even if the delivery of a community edition is not at the same time as the full version.
    Regards,
    Phill

    Reply

  • paxer avatar

    Posted on Jan 14, 2010 (permalink)

    Very sad news... I was thinking to start using Sitefinity like a development platform for all of my feature projects. But not all of them have a budjet for commercial version. Unfortunately in this situation i would prefer to use  Kentico CMS like dev platform, as it have limited Free version but absolutely enough for small projects.

    Reply

  • Anton Hristov Anton Hristov avatar

    Posted on Jan 15, 2010 (permalink)

    Everyone who has Sitefinity Community Edition 3x in their accounts can enjoy using it for as many future projects as they deem it fit for. The Community Edition 3.7x will always remain in your accounts. Also, if you have downloaded the Community Edition from any other source, you can continue using it indefinitely.
     
    Best wishes,
    Anton
    the Telerik team

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  • Posted on Jan 15, 2010 (permalink)

    What about like $99 version of 4.0 for personal use? :)

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  • Posted on Jan 15, 2010 (permalink)

    Anton, unfortunately that's not an option for many. Who wants to develop for 4.0 (which I understand is quite the change) and then also have to develop and maintain 3.7 for smaller sites/clients. Also, my point is more to the fact that this is obviously a sign that Telerik is making changes that aren't small site/company friendly. It's totally understandable if you have to change your model and pricing but you need to keep your users informed. To just remove the community edition with no notice, if very poor form and now my trust level has just dropped. Maybe without notice you'll increase the price from $800 to $2000 and the project I'm currently working on will have to be moved to a different CMS.

    So yes a little part of it is about "where can I get community edition now" but the bigger picture and bigger concern (for me) is that you've made a move that makes me not trust you and the future of Sitefinity which is something I don't like. People are working with clients, possibly delaying launches of sites/projects in anticipation of version 4 (even a community edition version of 4) but now, without notice or warning they're out of luck. (if there was a news release or similar that there would no longer be a community edition, I definitely missed it).

    Just my 2 cents (ok, 2 more on top of my previous 2 cents)...
    Phill

    Reply

  • Trey avatar

    Posted on Jan 15, 2010 (permalink)

    Phil hit the nail on the head for my situation. The first I saw of this was a random tweet, and (not to be too dramatic) it felt like I'd been punched in the gut. I've been pushing hard at my company to standardize around Sitefinity, and part of the reason was that there was a free version for those sites with small budgets that we have to do for various political reasons. I understand that 3.7 Community is not going to stop working, and we could use it for these small sites, but we don't have the resources here to develop for two drastically different versions of Sitefinity at once.

    The bigger issue, as Phil said, is one of trust. If there was any notification of this, I certainly missed it. I'm now put into the situation of having to go in front of my boss and say that the Community Edition option is going away, and I found out about it from a random tweeter. There's no news posting about it, no notice from the more "official" Twitter feeds, no blog posts, nothing but this forum post and a sudden absence of any mention of Community Edition on the site. That's going to look really bad in his eyes, and it looks bad in my eyes. What else is going to change with no notice? I'm now extremely wary of what is coming next. The current site I'm building will go forward and launch, but this may be a developmental dead end. You have your reasons for discontinuing the product, and it's completely your prerogative to do so, but the way this has been handled has made me stop and think about our future direction.

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Jan 18, 2010 (permalink)

    I’m certainly not surprised or concerned that Telerik have decided to stop giving the product and support away.

    I know plenty of people who have elected to use the community version for a commercial deploy, and forsake the few feature differences... expecting Telerik to provide support for nothing, via the forums.

    Perhaps an expanded price/feature matrix would provide the compromise between an affordable entry point, and Telerik getting a return for their work and support.

    You know the sort of thing, Personal, Professional, Enterprise versions... with price increases commensurate with the added features and support provided.

    Reply

  • bemara57 Master avatar

    Posted on Jan 18, 2010 (permalink)

    The concerns here are totally valid.

    I want to get one thing straight tho, current 3.7 Community Editions will work indefinitely.. but will I still be able to install 3.7 Community Editions in the future? Also, will I be able to upgrade these 3.7 installs to the paid version in the future as well?


    Telerik does not loose anything by "giving away" the community edition. They have gained thousands of free testers, contributions, feedback, and word-of-mouth back from the COMMUNITY. If you stop the community edition, this will sufficate the community until it dies completely. You cannot put a pricetag on a community.

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Jan 18, 2010 (permalink)

    Communities and feedback are all fine and well, but at the end of the day, I suspect that sales of the "standard" version are needed to cover the expense of supporting a "free" version.

     

    IMHO, the free, or so-called "hobby", version of Sitefinity is quite simply too feature-rich for its own good, and in my experience, most SMBs will happily do without versioning, flow-control, and the few other differences, leaving little incentive for them to "upgrade" at any point.

     

    I've built a number of sites for SMBs, based on the approach of using the "community" version to get a foot-hold, and upgrading them to the "standard" version once they are comfortable with the product... and to date, not one of them has felt the need or desire to pay for the upgrade... they are all perfectly happy to continue using the free version.

     

    It would perhaps be a different matter if there were more significant limitations on the free version, like no support for compiled dlls as controls, or no support for custom modules, or some other compelling reasons for SMB users to upgrade, but as it stands, the free version is absolutely good enough to support commercial sites for an awful lot of SMB installations.

     

    Personally, I think that a quality product, with good documentation and support, at a fair price, will flourish in this market, that is full of half-baked and poorly supported products, particularly if there is a price/feature matrix that provides solid reasons for people to upgrade between versions.

     

    I can still see a place for a free, or "Express", version in such a marketing plan, but only if it were significantly stripped down so that SMBs would not be so comfortable using it to run a commercial site.

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 18, 2010 (permalink)

    Sorry I've been quiet on this thread.  I was in Dallas this past weekend helping with a charity event.

    Some additional communication on this topic will be sent soon...  In the meantime, everyone who has used the Community Edition in the past still has it available in their accounts. 

    Beyond that, we were planning to use our regular communications (like the monthly Sitefinity newsletters and Sitefinity news/forums updates) for this announcement and details.  The coordination between these communications and web site updates perhaps didn't come together in the correct order.

    Sorry for the confusion.   More soon...

    Gabe Sumner
    Evangelist
    Telerik : Sitefinity CMS

    Reply

  • Jason Irving avatar

    Posted on Jan 18, 2010 (permalink)

    Well, I was hoping that this might the open source CMS in .NET. I've been looking for. I've tried them all in .NET and they are still a far cry from the mature PHP portal systems.

    Oh well back to the PHP world. At least MS will be supporting PHP in Visual Studio as a native language in 2010 and improved FastCGI support in IIS7. If everything goes to plan, maybe this wont be an issue.

    Reply

  • Anthony avatar

    Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Gabe,

    Respectfully, that's a day late and a dollar short.

    I have projects in the pipeline, at various stages of completion, some of which would definitely have been upgraded to a full version.

    Now, I have to go to clients and explain that I have to start again and find another CMS. Very unprofessional.

    Sincerely,
    Anthony Grace.


    Reply

  • Vassil Terziev MVP avatar

    Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi,

    It seems most of the discussion revolves around two points:
    1.    Telerik’s transparency and communication surrounding the removal of the Free Community version and
    2.    Sitefinity’s future – will it have a free version and how much will the paid version(s) cost

    Before I talk in greater detail about the above points, I would like to start with some background why we decided to discontinue the Community Edition.

    Our original idea was to offer a free version to hobbyists so they could set up their blog, personal website, local community website, their kid’s baseball site and so on. People were happy and we were happy because the product was put to good use. Then people started pleading that we allow them to build small websites for their business as they couldn’t afford a paid CMS. We said, OK, let’s do it and we allowed commercial use as well. As we didn’t want to be cheap on the folks using the Community Edition, we did not offer them a crippled version – we offered them a real CMS.

    What happened in the last couple of years since we first introduced the Community Version was that people started using it for purposes other than the ones listed above – they were not using it for their company/personal websites. Rather, they were using it to build company/personal sites for others and were making a business on top of a free product. Some people did not even bother to comply with the logo requirement and linking back. This, however, did not prevent them from being unhappy that we were not solving their challenges within a day and providing solutions to their forum posts. What was supposed to be “community support” became Telerik support through a “community channel”. Needless to say, that had its price tag too. It was not free – it was just our conscious decision not to let anyone down as we have never done it. But it forced us to think how long it can go on like this.

    Perhaps we are the ones to blame as we had put too many features in the CE, and we did not explicitly say in the EULA that it’s OK to use SF CE for commercial purposes only to build a website for your company, not to build sites for other people. Now, I can’t blame the people that did it – nothing wrong if they didn’t break any license agreement. But the truth of the matter is that many people that could pay and thus support the evolution of the product decided that the free version is good enough and didn’t go for the Standard Edition which, even at the price of $899, is extremely inexpensive. SO inexpensive, that some people discriminate the quality of the product because of the price. Those people did what’s best for their business and decided to maximize their profit. Likewise, Telerik needs to do what’s best for our business in order to ensure the progression of the project and to make sure that all companies that did invest money in SF are in a good position.

    To ensure that Sitefinity doesn’t stagnate, we wanted to take some measures and the trimming of the Community Edition is a major one of them. Some of you mentioned that we are not losing anything from giving away Sitefinity – that’s true. But we also are not making anything and we cannot sustain the team without generating revenue. The community goodwill is very important and we are very appreciative of it but goodwill doesn’t pay the bills. It needs to be monetized for it to work for both parties – some companies fail because they are afraid to stop offering something that’s free and on which they are losing money. Others fail because they become greedy and decide that they want to rip off their customers. We don’t want to do either – we are not greedy but we want to find a reasonable intersection between what we are offering as a product and what we are charging for it. The fact that we were offering a CMS that can compete feature-wise and has better scalability than 4-5 digit CMSs means that things were a bit unfairly skewed from our standpoint.

    So how could we solve some of the challenges? One possibility was to trim down the features offered in the Community Edition. This had two problems. First, it would have meant that you would get an “upgrade” with less features.  This doesn’t make a lot of sense. It defeats the whole purpose of continuity and you would’ve been just as well off as you are now – to use the SF CE 3.7 Edition as long as you wish. The second problem was that the trimming down of features would have required development work and this is not an option when we are hard at work towards the 4.0 release and every minute matters. So, we had two other options – leave everything as is or drop the CE now. The former, because of the reasons outlined above, was not really an option. So we decided that the least evil is to discontinue CE for new customers and win some time to see what we can do for 4.0 customers who are looking for an affordable CMS for smaller projects. I want to stress one thing – no one who is using SF CE is at any risk. The product will continue to live, you will be able to build new sites on it, it will be available through the Web Platform Installer. So it’s a bit unfair to say that we stopped the free version when you have a perpetual license and you can get a hold of it through other channels. It is fair to say though that we do not have definite plans to offer a free version for Sitefinity 4.0 and onwards.

    So what happened to the communication and why didn’t we announce it properly? The short story – it broke. Our team is growing, responsibilities are shifted among people and we did not play this one properly. The sequence of events did not happen in the right order. We also underestimated the effect for existing customers who could continue using the version without any problems. Those of you who have worked long enough with Telerik know that we treat customers fairly. One of our greatest prides is the level of transparency with customers. We have always been very open and straightforward in our communication. With any change we’ve made to pricing and licensing, we have always taken care of customers. With the release of 4.0, we will make no exception. You also know that we have made mistakes and we have fixed them and we are open to reconsider our position as long as customers take into account the problems we are trying to solve. So, consider this as a communication blunder on our behalf and please accept our apologies.

    This brings us to what’s ahead of Sitefinity. While we are not in complete agreement internally what we can offer to customers looking for an affordable solution for a small website, we will definitely consider your input for 4.0. One thing that would help us is to frame what a small website is and what kind of features are required. If we can agree on those and the difference of opinion is not in terms of magnitude, I am sure that we can come up with a good proposition. You know what our challenges are, so you can help us solve them.

    With regards to pricing – yes, it will go up, but so will the value of the product. The productivity you will get will outweigh the increase in cost. It will be announced much in advance. And, unlike most of the CMS vendors, we will be open about our licensing and pricing. Perhaps the price increase will lead to the loss of some customers, but that’s life – you cannot please everyone. If you try to please everyone, you please none. In any case, we don’t intend to go the way of other vendors – from something that costs $1,000 to something that costs more than $100,000. The new business model will allow those of you who invested into learning Sitefinity over the past years to expand your business by collaborating with Telerik.

    I hope all of this makes sense and sheds more light as to why things happened and why they happened the way they did.

    Vassil Terziev
    Co-founder/CEO
    Telerik Corp.

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Vassil,
      Can you clarify the price increase...?

    Existing subscribers shouldn't have to pay more to get the initail 4.0 release, correct?  We'd just have to pay a higher renewal price?  I've got a support ticket or two to that effect, and we literally just renewed every telerik subscription (I mean literally every product you make) last week...

    Also, I hope Gabe wasn't the one getting in trouble for posting the answer here first :)  He does a great job for the community!

    Thanks,
    Steve

    Reply

  • Anthony avatar

    Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Ditto on Gabe's contributions to the community - whenever I'm in trouble, I Google his name with Sitefinity! ;-)

    Reply

  • Martin Martin admin's avatar

    Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Steve,

    We value the loyalty of our customers and with any changes we have done and may introduce in the future, we strive to make the transition as painless as possible for all existing Telerik customers.

    All customers with a Standard Edition license with active subscription will receive the Sitefinity 4.0 Standard Edition at no additional cost as part of their subscription. We stick to the value offering of our license subscritpions - they entitle customers to free access to major and minor product upgrades as well as technical support.

    If a subscription is expired, it is renewable at the current cost of $269 and will grant the 4.0 Standard Edition at no extra expense. If we increase the cost of the 4.0 Sitefinity Standard Edition License, this will be partially compensated by a lower subscription renewal rate. As Vassil pointed out, we plan on keeping the cost/value ratio of Sitefinity as high as it is.

    All the best,
    Martin
    the Telerik team

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  • Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Steve & Anthony,

    I appreciate the kind words on my behalf, but please don't fear for my sake.  I'm definitely not in trouble.  :)

    Even apart from this topic, Telerik doesn't really have that type of internal atmosphere.  We have high internal standards, but mistakes are viewed as learning opportunities.  I know this sounds like high-minded corporate mission statement babble that no one internally regards, but Telerik really does seem to live it.  As long as people are trying, learning & growing, there are plenty of opportunities.

    After some of my past jobs, this environment is refreshing...

    Gabe Sumner
    Evangelist
    Telerik | Sitefinity CMS

    Reply

  • Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi Vassil,
    I'm sure my comments have stirred the pot a little bit. I would like to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to formulate you response and I totally understand where you're coming from. In the end if you guys can't stay in business then nobody wins. As I said, I have yet to deploy a community based site and probably never will except maybe if I ever get around to redoing our corporate site. Otherwise I will continue to develop client sites and purchase the standard edition. 
    My concern with this type of thing is always around the unannounced disappearance of a product (be it free or pay to use) as trust is a huge element of why developers choose a product. I can't say enough good things about the technical support Telerik provides, especially the support they provide for free in the forums instead of always forcing users to go to a ticket. This is remarkably generous and I hope the new model allows you to continue this type of openness and support.
    Anyway, I just wanted to say that your in depth email and explanation are appreciated and I look forward to 4.0 and to paying for it, as long as the increase is still in the budget of my target market!

    Regards,
    Phill

    Reply

  • Vassil Terziev MVP avatar

    Posted on Jan 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Thanks Phill,

    I am glad that I could contribute to the discussion and I apologize once again if we have sent the wrong message to the community. As Gabe put it - it's another learning lesson for us.

    Best,
    Vassil

    Reply

  • Cormac avatar

    Posted on Mar 3, 2010 (permalink)

    I think the concerns have started to be addressed in the thread above. I dont think anyone minds paying for such a good product. The issue is the target markets. There are two for us. Small and start up business, and established small to medium business. As development companies we are not too worred about hobbyists, but we are concerned with small or start up companies with a very tight budget.

    I think all of us would pay for a simpler stripped down version up to about $250 to serve these companies, so that we don't have to use a product outside Telerik. 
    We can then serve the more established companies with a superior product for slightly more (maybe 1250 dollar price point).

    It really is important to provide the two price points:
    It allows us to develop solely in sitefinity for all clients. Keeping our expertise, support and solution levels high.
    It allows us to service all clients with confidence in the future of the product.

    Thats my two cents. And yes a big thanks to Gabe for all his work!

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 8, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi there,

    Firstly, what an awsome job you have been doing. There is no other cms like Sitefinity that we have come accross to date.

    Disappointed Community User
    We have been using the community edition to sell websites for all of my customers to date. We fall into the category of costly users that don't provide for financial support for the success of sitefinity thus far as we are a start up. This  being said, We fully intend and are excited to sell licenses for this product in order to become an affilate. We are currently working on two websites that have written standard edition licenses into the contracts. These will be deployed in the next two months. We also intend to rebuild our own website using sitefinity which will be our third license. This news is a big downer for us since we see how powerful this product is and want as many people in the world to adopt it. we honestly believe that path for new users to get on board sitefinity is going to be shot down in cold blood without the community edition.

    Set to lose its mojo
    This is heartbreaking because we have aspirations to build pluggable modules for sitefinity that nolonger seem appealing at all. You are taking away the possibility for a set of developers to provide a multitude of free support and addins to sitefinity. This is a core feature of any world class cms in the world today that is being crippled. The bigger problem is now this: How does sitefinity let free users benifit from free and paid plugins and still have an upgrade that is appealing for enterprise users? If this can be solved then you have a winner.

    You have almost got it right
    You said you don't want to release a version that has less features than the original which would be a downgrade. Yet, this is exactly what you need to do. Existing users should still be granted usage for sitefinity 3.7 to solve continued faith in your core users. This would be an effective strategy and here is the reason why. Sitefinity 4.0 will be great ( I saw the video released in december that was posted erroneously for a day, "Love it!" ) and sell it self.
    How about cut out the drag and drop designer functionality and a few of the other nifty additions including most of the modules aside from the blog.

    What drives the beast?
    Why does a dotnetnuke or a wordpress do so well? It isn't the forum or community support, or flexibility,  that is for sure. Free, Free, Free, Addins, Addins, and more Addins. Here are two mamoth systems that both absolutely !@#$ balls but destroy sitefinity in numbers I presume. But look at what they are doing right and apply it to the awsomeness of sitefinity and there will be no competition left standing.

    Jaime


    Reply

  • Anton Hristov Anton Hristov avatar

    Posted on Mar 10, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi Jaime,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us! We are happy to hear that you are in the process of becoming a Sitefinity Partner. Looking forward to working with you.

    I am sorry to hear that we have disappointed you by discontinuing the Community Edition of Sitefinity. This was a tough decision to make on our side, but it was also a necessary one for ensuring the future of the product.

    In regard to your comment about Sitefinity and its community mojo, the new Sitefinity 4.0 architecture and APIs will empower developers to build a multitude of powerful pluggable modules and plug-ins for Sitefinity in a much faster and even easier way than it is currently possible with Sitefinity 3.7. The developers productivity with Sitefinity 4.0 will be unmatched by any other CMS product on the Market. We have also launched a Marketplace where Sitefinity developers can offer for free or paid download their custom developed Sitefinity components and share them with the rest of the community. The number of components available at the Marketplace has already reached 70+ and it is rapidly growing. We expect this number to grow even faster following the release of Sitefinity 4.0. We also have great plans about improving the Marketplace, which may turn out to become a valuable business opportunity for just about any developer out there who’s familiar with Sitefinity. 

    We are always willing to listen to our community, reconsider our position, and work together towards solving the problems we are facing therefore, I encourage everyone not to spare us their feedback and ideas.

    Kind regards,
    Anton
    the Telerik team

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  • Posted on Mar 10, 2010 (permalink)

    Will there be a "developer" edition of 4.0? Generally, if I am to work on a project for a client, all my work will be done on localhost IIS, and thus, will provide a stable environment for me to produce a solid example of what can be accomplished with the system.

    As I am new to Sitefinity, I have started development of several sites of Sitefinity using the community edition, and if all goes well, will eventually upgrade these to standard, as the budget permits. I find it a bit unfortunate that community edition is going away for start-ups that want something solid to run on their back-ends. I think its more of a problem with .NET in general, because there are a multitude of Open Source CMS systems that provide similar features, or even further, have tons of available plugins that can extend each system for free, developed by community members using free versions of the software.

    I understand the need for commercial sales, every company has a cost, and must meet these requirements to stay afloat. Just remember, you are competing with a large open source community, just as Microsoft is, and there are some things you really should consider offering for free. I know plenty of people who started working with .NET because there are free express editions available, and these express editions were put out to compete with Open Source competitors. There are gives and takes for giving away product in a community edition.

    Altogether, when I found Sitefinity, I was excited to finally see a .NET product that served the community, and had some level of support to answer customer questions. I moved to .NET from Open Source, because that's what my college teaches. I enjoy some aspects of it, but I truly miss the level of interaction with the community, and the countless number of freely available add-ons to hundreds of different CMS systems. I was hoping this project would be different from other .NET projects I've seen, but as it now stands, the community will parish for this project as I have seen for other projects, by going from offering, to limiting community input.

    I wish you luck with your new plan, as I know there is a lot at stake.

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 10, 2010 (permalink)

    Numbers are my concern
    I am just discouraged because of the possible numbers of users being limited. Without a free edition I can't imagine enough people will gain interest to make developments quite worth the effort. I am however interested in the new module framework you seem to be eluding to.


    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 13, 2010 (permalink)

    I am pretty gutted that the community addition for 4.0 is being shelved but alas I understand the reason. However I really do like the idea of different prices for different versions. I would be very happy to pay $250 for a cut down version of sitefinity 4.0 and for my bigger customers pay $1,250. I am a small outfit and a loyal Telerik fan, so I want to stick with Telerik where possible. My small customers will faint if I charged them $1,250 + my dev fees on top. But if I charged them $250 for a usuable CMS but a trusted company then they would be happy to pay. My corporate customers would expect their CMS to cost over $1,000 so they would be happy to pay that. So basically even though 4.0 will not have a community addition I employ you to consider a cut down version for a much lower fee.

    Thanks

    Reply

  • Anton Hristov Anton Hristov avatar

    Posted on Mar 15, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi all,

    @Sean Haddy

    You will be able to develop with Sitefinity 4.0 on localhost without having to purchase any licenses. This is the case with the current version as well. Hence, you are able to develop a proof of concept and show it to potential customers prior to investing any financial resources in the project. Also, having a fully featured and functional Sitefinity trial edition that never expires enables everyone to evaluate and test Sitefinity against their specific project requirements and determine whether Sitefinity is the right product for them. We are also happy to work with and assist everybody in determining whether Sitefinity is a good fit for their project.

    @Jaime

    All licensing and pricing information regarding Sitefinity 4.0 will be publicly announced on our website well in advance prior to the official release. We will be very open and transparent about our business model.

    @Michael Josiah

    Thank you for the understanding and feedback! We are considering having different editions for Sitefinity 4.0 however, nothing has been finalized in terms of licensing and pricing yet.

    Best regards,

    Anton
    the Telerik team

    Do you want to have your say when we set our development plans? Do you want to know when a feature you care about is added or when a bug fixed? Explore the Telerik Public Issue Tracking system and vote to affect the priority of the items.

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 18, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi there,

    Pricing Increase
    It seems to me that a few people have mentioned a price increase. Is this true? We are having a problem convincing our customers to buy the licensed version at $900.

    Jaime


    Reply

  • Schmidty avatar

    Posted on Mar 19, 2010 (permalink)

    I just want to chime into this as a Telerik license holder for several years.

    You can add me to the list who are interested in various editions for Sitefinity. I have not used it before but I am really looking at adding a CMS as part of my web development services that I can rely on and trust. I feel Telerik would fit this bill as I don't see any other ASP.NET built CMS that fits what I want.

    Without discussing the community edition, I cannot justify the $900 license for the small businesses and non-profits that I typically market to. They are usually looking for a solution that fits the several hundred dollar area ($300-$600) when it's all said and done. If a client needed a more corporate solution then the $900 price wouldn't be a problem. I understand the thought process for dropping the CE, and I'm totally fine with a edition that isn't free.

    I am really hoping that there is an edition of Sitefinity in the future that fits the bill for small businesses. I know I will actively be implementing it for as the platform  for clients that fit the need for a CMS. I've worked with Telerik for a few years now and  have nothing but praise for the company, products, and community.

    I can't say that you should price it at anything specific, but please do consider offering something that we developers can sell to small business clients. As I said before, if there is an edition that fits what I'm looking for the right price I will be actively using Sitefinity as my CMS solution.

    Thank you,
    Mark

    Reply

  • Mark avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Sitefinity is great product.
    The loss of an up to date community edition will be a large loss for the ASP.NET community.

    I think that the Sitefinity Community Edition drives a lot of Positive Buzz among developers and the results of their efforts produce really great websites. This buzz encourages more developers and large business to use the product which in turn helps drives the success of Telerik, Microsoft and ASP.NET.

    Without the community version the positive effect that Sitefinity has on the web developer community and the Buzz it generates will gradually lessen and eventually fade away. Sitefinity will become another Enterprise product with no interaction with the general web developer community.

    Telerik will also leave a very large gap in the market for another company to release a similar product and start building a loyal set of users based on a free version.

    I think that one of the things that Microsoft ASP.NET needs to keep its user numbers growing is a good free CMS system. Without it developers may use a PHP CMS application or an inferior ASP.Net CMS system. Both of these will result in less positivity for the ASP.NET world in general and less growth.

    Obviously Telerik can probably make enough money from selling to a group of a few of thousand Enterprise users that they do not need to worry about the growth of ASP.NET use in general.

    My Suggestions:

    1)      It would be great if Microsoft could see the advantages of keeping a free ASP.NET CMS like Sitefinity and would provide Telerik with sponsorship to release and support a 4.0 community version.

    2)      The community could provide more support to itself in a dedicated community support forum where users would answer each other’s support questions.

    3)      Telerik could charge for access to its own community version support forum or just not have one at all.

    4)      A combination of all the above.

     

    What do you think? Can we start lobbying Microsoft?

    Kind Regards,

    Mark OG.

    Reply

  • Anthony avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    @Mark, this is the best suggestion I've heard so far! :-)

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    I am not sure if Microsoft would go for it, but I think its worth a try. Sitefinity does a lot for the .NET community, and should be recognized for its developments of this system and its efforts to keep the system up-to-date with requests. I know it might be a tricky game of Cat & Mouse, in figuring out the details, but keeping a system like this free to the community is important for the .NET CMS OS community in the long run.

    Reply

  • bleutiger Intermediate avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Just throwing my 2 cents in here.

    I was dumbfounded to come accross this post that the community edition was going away.  I work for a school district and we are a standard license holder but I also do development work on the side and was so excited to find a truly easy to use .NET based CMS  that was completely easy to understand for the base use and completely customizable for the advanced users.

    I definately fall into the category of very small business website developers.  I have recommended Sitefinity to every new business owner I meet.  Unfortunately most of them cannot afford the $900 pricetag for a standard license even though it is well worth the money, however they still need to compete with larger companies and their websites still need the features available here and no where else.

    I have proudly displayed the Powered by Sitefinity Logo on every community site I have been involved with and my clients have all loved it as well.

    I have also been surprised at how often it is a Telerik employee who answers the forum posts that I put out instead of other community members.

    I think the forum questions should be answered by members of the community and Standard Edition licens holders should use the private ticket system that is already in place.

    This would free up the Telerik employees who are using a lot of their time to answer community forum posts.

    I hope that Sitefinity is listening to the suggestions about at least providing a slim version "Sitefinity Lite" for us Tiny to small business website developers.  $250 would be awesome but at lease under $400.

    I will finish with this...

    I thought I had found the mothership here and was answering the call to have all of my client sites developed with Sitefinity.  I hope the next couple of months do not send me in search of another to place my confidence and trust.

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    With the utmost of respect, I don't buy the argument that small business can't afford to pay for a standard license.

    I've never come across a small business that could not afford to pay for a copy of MS Office, but any number that will all harp on about the cost of a CMS, because they have been exposed to products like Joomla, and don't know enough about the topic to appreciate the difference.

    Web-Developers are typically poor salesmen, and it's always true that it's easier to give something away than to sell it. There are plenty of cheap/free products out there for customers to save money with, if that is their focus.

    FWIW, my own approach is that if I can't convince the customer to buy a license, I walk away from the job, because they are more concerned about not spending money than they are about what I can provide them.

    I think the suggestion of the forums being supported by the community only, has much merit... and Telerik should focus on providing support via the ticket system, and providing community information via blogs and KB's.

    However, the problem with the ticket system is, how does Telerik differentiate in supporting 100 free site issues for you, because you have sold 1 license ?

    Hence, I don't believe that a free version is viable because, unless it's so emasculated as to be clearly unattractive, developers will always take the easy sales route of using the free version, and Telerik will end up paying for the support of it.

    I can see some virtue in a product matrix... the main issue being, which features do you leave out of the cheaper versions ??

    As an aside, Microsoft have their own CMS products and their own free-CMS projects, and so I think it would take a lot of convincing to get them to "sponsor" Sitefinity.

    Reply

  • Lee avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Here's a thought.  Why not LOWER the price of SiteFinity 4.0 to something like $399?  I know, it sounds crazy to lower the price of your new and improved product, but by doing so you increase the number of potential buyers ten fold.  So for every developer/business out there that is willing to shell out $1000+ on a CMS system, I guarantee you that there are 10 others who could go with $399.  Seems like simple math to me.  1 x $1000 or 10 x $399.

    I picked $399 because thats the maximum I would be willing to spend out of my own pocket and it's also a number that a lot of people with expense accounts can spend without approval! ;)

    I dare you to try this.  Maybe offer it as an introductory price for a limited period of time to see how it goes.  My guess it that you'll be surprised by the response (in a pleasant way ;) ).

    Best Regards,

    Lee Phillips

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Do you own a small company?
    >With the utmost of respect, I don't buy the argument that small business can't afford to pay
    >for a standard license.
    You are basically generalizing about small business and it seems you probably don't have the background to back up your argument. Small business is almost a suicidal process. More than 80% of them fail within a few years and many aren't profitable for a couple of years. What part of that don't you understand?  
    >I've never come across a small business that could not afford to pay for a copy of MS
    >Office, but any number that will all harp on about the cost of a CMS, because they have
    >been exposed to products like Joomla, and don't know enough about the topic to
    >appreciate the difference. 
    Can you say one time fee?
    >Web-Developers are typically poor salesmen, and it's always true that it's easier to give
    >something away than to sell it. There are plenty of cheap/free products out there for
    >customers to save money with, if that is their focus.
    Good point but we also can't afford to develop with those softwares as our development time more than doubles or triples. Sitefinity is great but still expensive to build with in a very competitive web development market.
    FWIW, my own approach is that if I can't convince the customer to buy a license, I walk away from the job, because they are more concerned about not spending money than they are about what I can provide them.
    Sounds like you are doing well then. Good job!
    >How does Telerik differentiate in supporting 100 free site issues for you, because you have >sold 1 license ?
    Maybe ticketing from within the cms would handle that.

    >Hence, I don't believe that a free version is viable because, unless it's so emasculated as to
    >be clearly unattractive, developers will always take the easy sales route of using the free
    >version, and Telerik will end up paying for the support of it.

    Don't offer support (again Maybe ticketing from within the cms would handle that.)
    Freemium model offers the highest exposure and maximum possible growth potential and follower-ship. Give something away for free and then sell it for like $599. When you get half as many followers as a wordpress then the numbers alone will account for a much larger volume of full edition buyers than you could possibly imagine. Offer product rewards and incentives that are fun for the users.
    Jaime

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Do you own a small company?
    >With the utmost of respect, I don't buy the argument that small business can't afford to pay
    >for a standard license.
    You are basically generalizing about small business and it seems you probably don't have the background to back up your argument. Small business is almost a suicidal process. More than 80% of them fail within a few years and many aren't profitable for a couple of years. What part of that don't you understand?  

    Actually, I do own a small business, have 30+ years experience in the industry, and know a thing or two about running them. I'm sure this was not intended as a personal slight, but please don't make assumptions about me or my background.

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    I would love to re-focus this thread on a question that Vassil posed in his original post:

    One thing that would help us is to frame what a small website is and what kind of features are required. If we can agree on those and the difference of opinion is not in terms of magnitude, I am sure that we can come up with a good proposition.

    I haven't seen many replies to this.  Our existing free version looked like this:

    - Unlimited pages
    - Unlimited users & roles
    - Unlimited simultaneous editors
    - Usable by commercial web sites
    - All the modules that were provided in the paid version
    - Usable on personal domains
    - No versioning
    - No workflow

    That covers a lot of ground.  In fact, it covers way too much ground.  For Sitefinity to survive, we needed to make some edits to this list.  So what do we change?  Limit the CMS to 25 pages?  Remove all of the modules?  What does a small business (a business that is unable to invest $899 in their web site) require from their CMS?  

    As Vassil said, we want to be fair with our cost.  However, in our minds, $899 is very very VERY fair.  We've done a ton of research on this. For what we offer, it's difficult to find competing products that are priced under $10,000.  

    Regarding lowering the price to sell more software...we have an understanding of what it costs us (money, time, effort, people) to create a CMS and support our customers to the level we want to perform.  Lowering the cost doesn't let us do the job we want to do.  Each customer has associated cost, so it's not merely a question of volume.

    So, I guess I'm left struggling to understand what feature set a $399 edition of Sitefinity would have.  This edition needs to be limited enough to make other editions of Sitefinity viable (attractive!) as well as address the budget constraints of small businesses.  Personally, I don't have a good answer to this.  Rather than do something poorly, we had decided to concentrate on what we can do well.  We're still open to suggestions though.

    Gabe Sumner
    Telerik | Sitefinity CMS

    Reply

  • paxer avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    For Small Business Edition It could have for example next features

    - 25 pages
    - 100 registered users 
    - 1 editor
    - Usable by commercial web sites
    - All the modules provided in the full version but allow to have only 1 blog, maximum 3 forums, maximum 5 document libraries
    - Usable on personal domains
    - No versioning
    - No workflow

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    If re-factoring is the main issue, to look at producing a community edition, or a lower price edition, then definatly mark the cms page count for those accounts. I think if you started removing modules, really, what would be the point of using the system? If you do provide a great cms architecture to build upon and really want people to purchase it, I think, the documentation and structure of the customization process is vital.

    I may have jumped on ship at the wrong time, but every time I go to start modifying something, I'm left tearing through tons of different "versions" of a ongoing 'api documentation' that many have pointed me from, and to other sources. Then when I start planning, I have to re-plan, and re-architect based upon new information. This makes the process hindering and painful, and much more work than OS.

    I think small businesses, or communities are looking for several aspects these days. Simple to update pages, easy to use contact forms, and ability to easily interact with their customers. Pages should have social network linking, forums with a greater array of features in relation to many php forums available, and contact forms should be painless to setup. Ability to integrate with image/video platforms for forum users to upload content. Provide a good package that gives this, and gives the developer the ability to extend it (with solid documentation and examples to back it up), and I will pay for that, out of pocket.

    As far as the 10k price-tag, the only reason why I think this could be applicable is due to the environment. As many have said, there really isn't much going on in the CMS arena in the .NET environment, just due to its structure in the past. .NET is changing, and evolving, and Microsoft see's that as well. Just look at how much more involved Microsoft is becoming in the OS environment, compared to say, 5 years ago. They are giving many products away because they want more community environment. Which way you guys choose to go, is your business decision. There is always a product that paves an industry's roads. I think Sitefinity could do that, with the proper redirection and community support.

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Gabe,

    I think that's pretty much the issue - what features to leave out of a lower level product.

    For mine, I'd suggest:

     - A page limit - 25 sounds like a place to start.
     - A template limit - 5 sounds like a place to start.
     - A limit to the number of users supported by the built-in membership provider.
     - No concurrent admin log-in (multiple admins accounts ok, but use up your memberhip limit).
     - No external providers (including membership, obviously)
     - No Custom Module support
     - No Tools support
     - No Versioning
     - No FlowControl
     - Only local database support.

    Reply

  • Lee avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    I don't think a feature limited edition is the answer.  I understand that there is a cost for each customer, but that cost can be lowered or recouped in a number of ways.  Why not offer the full product for $399 with no support other than the community forums, and no discounted upgrade to the next major version?  Then offer the $899+ version with 1 year of support and a discounted upgrade to the next major version after the first year.  Maybe even go to the next level and offer paid one-time immediate support. Some competitors even offer paid set up assistance, which is not a bad idea.  Many of the larger organizations will just automatically opt-in to the supported version because they aren't comfortable going without it. 

    This route would mean that you wouldn't have to split the code base or add feature locking/unlocking code to the current code base.  It would offer other revenue streams and it would increase the install base, which means more developers working with the product which means more product being sold due to their recommending to product to peers and customers.

    Just my thoughts.  Take 'em for what they're worth.
    -Lee

    Reply

  • paxer avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    Why not offer the full product for $399 with no support other than the community forums, and no discounted upgrade to the next major version? 

    I think the correct answer will be try to hire developer and ask how much will cost to build similar CMS like Sitefinity and how long time it will take. The answer will be thousands and years. Take a look on competitors CMS engines with similar features in .Net world, current 899$ is cheap. I vote for limited version for $399, it sound more realistic.

    Reply

  • Lee avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    I have to disagree paxar.  The build vs. buy argument doesn't really apply.  That's the whole reason for component vendors in the first place, to encapsulize and package reausable technology and offer it at a considerably lower price that the cost to build it.  They make their money selling enough copies of their widgets to recover their development and customer acquisition expenses.

    While I don't have any real hope that Vassil, Gabe or the rest of the Telerik team will agree, I continue to believe that offerring the full version, at a lower price with zero support would actually increase the potential revenue from the Sitefinity product line.  People who wouldn't otherwise buy it, would now buy it.  People that would buy it at the higher price probably still will, just so that they can have the support option.

    Again, I challenge Telerik to give this a try, if just for a trial period.  Prove me wrong!  I'll be first to pony up the $399.  (just don't tell my fiance that I'm spending our honeymoon money on it!)

    By the way, I haven't even played with Sitefinity yet.  I was looking for a CMS product for an idea that I had, and Sitefinity seemed the way to go, but lo and behold when I get here I'm too late for the community edition and don't want to spend $899 on an idea that may or may not be any good. :(

    Best Regards,
    Lee

    Reply

  • paxer avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    I have to disagree paxar.  The build vs. buy argument doesn't really apply.  That's the whole reason for component vendors in the first place, to encapsulize and package reausable technology and offer it at a considerably lower price that the cost to build it.  They make their money selling enough copies of their widgets to recover their development and customer acquisition expenses.

    The problem is that CMS market is not a massive market like car trading for example. CMS it's not what everyone need. I am pretty sure that even if they will reduce price, number of customers will not increase dramatically, this is only possible if they will give CMS for free.

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    While I don't have any real hope that Vassil, Gabe or the rest of the Telerik team will agree, I continue to believe that offerring the full version, at a lower price with zero support would actually increase the potential revenue from the Sitefinity product line.  People who wouldn't otherwise buy it, would now buy it.  People that would buy it at the higher price probably still will, just so that they can have the support option.

    It would be interesting to know the proportion of customer who buy direct, build their own sites and require support vs. leave it to the developer to provide the license and support. While I would suspect the later is the larger, I can't see how selling a product without support would enhance Telerik's position or reputation.

    In my experience (admittedly a bit jaded by time) people resent paying for support at any time, and will always look for a way to avoid it, even if it means replacing the product. I find it unlikely that people will pay extra for it.

    The mind-set tends to be... I don't care how cheap it was, I bought some "stuff" and you should support it.

    However, paying extra for additional features, is a different mind-set, and people have far less resistance to paying extra to get extra "stuff".

    Of course, I'm just another 2c worth of noise from the stands.

    Reply

  • Schmidty avatar

    Posted on Mar 25, 2010 (permalink)

    I think a page limit (25 being the example) works. I don't have the surefire answer to what an alternative version should look at, but the example sites I look at are fit the small business scope.

    One is religious site, non-profit. Maximum pages would probably fall well under 25 pages. I wouldn't need a forum, poll, and perhaps even a calendar. Basically, I would be selective on what is needed. The benefit for these clients would be the ability of them to edit their pages, and user base would probably be just for the administrators (2 people).

    Another example site is one I was actually considering moving to the community edition some time ago. This is also a non-profit site  for several annual events. The page count would be well over 25, and would probably use the blog module for press releases. Beyond that, I wouldn't need any of the other modules or several users. The only users would probably be a few editors and the webmaster/developers. I know they are too cheap for the current price, and something lower I might be able to sell them on.

    I know a version can't be crafted to serve everyone's need but as I look at the features I see a lot of my clients looking for the basic editing capabilities. But it does depend on the type of client & their business/organization. Depending on the pricing, I think once they got used to the product it's easier to gradually go from a price like $399 to $X for the expanded features. I could see a client who had this need eventually grow their site over time. But currently some of my clients would be seeking bare bone features like the examples above.

    Reply

  • Leonard avatar

    Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    Great suggestions so far, so I thought I'd give my 0.02 as well.

    I fully agree with the following:
    -> single version, fully functional: easier for everyone to develop, maintain, support, demonstrate, and, very important, it allows the client to increase its licensing needs based on the usage rather than feature set. The feature set should always be "there" in full, ready to be used, without upgrades from one version to another, etc.
    -> no free version is needed if the single version, with a full feature set, has a licensing model for all needs and client sizes (see below for more)
    -> assuming good documentation (e.g. don't create support requests because of the lack of and/or poor documentation) custom support should be done through ticketing system only, and it would be Telerik's choice whether to publish some of the answers in KB articles, or updated documentation. The number of support tickets allowed would be part of the license pack a client would purchase.
    -> the licensing model should be very simple: easy to choose the package to start with, then easy to buy more, with certain increments, as the needs increase.

    Here are my suggestions for the licensing model:
    1. Single, fully featured version, with version upgrade rights for any new additional incremental purchase (see #2).
    2. License levels or packages based on the number of CMS pages only, starting with a small number (say 10 pages) and allow the client to (easily) buy / upgrade to a larger "page pack" up to 20, 50, etc. The idea is to relate the licensing costs to the client needs for content consumption, rather than feature set. A client could use their pages as they see fit, to consume content created with any module. I don't believe the licensing model should be related in any way with the number of CMS users (it's rather implicit through the number of allowed CMS pages).
    3. Include a minimal, proportional number of support tickets with the purchase of a "page pack".
    4. Allow the client to buy additional support tickets in packages as well - have tens of questions / support needs for a starter 10 page license, no problem - buy as many as needed.
    5. Have an unlimited license offering as well (enterprise) - unlimited number of CMS pages, decent number of support requests included (the "enterprise" can always buy more - see #4), free version upgrades for 1 year (or whatever the period).

    I hope this helps --

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    No, I don't like a "number of pages" model...I've bought a few domain licenses, and I don't want to have to pay more to add more pages...it's a database entry, thats not a good way of doing it.  That would just piss me off, and the clients who may decide they want to add a bunch of pages but can't becasue we need to spend the 30 days getting something through purchasing.

    Reply

  • bleutiger Intermediate avatar

    Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    I think we first need to define small business  maybe my clients would fit into the category of "tiny business".

    Most of my clients are Sole Proprietorships with 1-5 employees tops.  They have no development experience nor do they understand what is involved.  They need a website because lets face it you almost can't do business without it these days.

    They need a simple to use platform that they can hire a developer to do the design work and then edit the site themselves for all of eternity.

    The Community Edition of Sitefinity provided that.

    As far as what to keep for a reduced price edition in the future.

    Limiting pages is a bad idea...I prevents people from building a site that they want and need and ticks them off when they would have to buy the full price version to add pages.  I think you would lose customers that way.

    Someone mentioned only local database support...WHAT?!?!?  wouldn't that defete the purpose in general unless you were building an Intranet on a local network.  Most shared hosting companies have their Servers seperated.

    Instead why not make it MySQL only for the reduced price/Free version  MySQL is free and most hosting providers offer it as part of their package as well.  Then if they need database support they can get it from the community or the MySQL community if need be.

    Limit the total number of Admins to 5.  This leaves room for your Developer the head hancho and his/her secretary and maybe a couple of others.  Again this matches a lot of hosting providers FTP account limit so smaller businesses would be used to that limitation.

    I don't believe that limiting the number of users is the right answer.  What if you owned a Martial Arts school and you wanted to make a members site and you had 125 students but you were limited to 100 users...doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Forum only support is a great idea for the reduced version.  I also like the ticket system from within the CMS idea.
    But to be honest there is already a seperate ticket system on the website for License holders so that seems redundent.  If the current ticket system is open to everyone that lock it down to license holders only.

    I also agree that quantity is better than quality when it comes to software.  I agree with the poster that challenged you to lower the price rether than raise it.  I also think that you would see a drastic increase in the amount of full licenses purchased.

    I understand that it takes time and money to develop great products however I often feel like sofware companies lose a lot of potential clients because they price their products out of most peoples price range.

    It is a simple cost to benefit ratio for me.  Will paying $1000 for a license give me anything better than say learning how to use .NET Nuke for free.  Sure I have to learn a new system so it cosat me time to learn.

    However I would easily drop an investment of $399 for a product I believed in.

    Reply

  • Anthony avatar

    Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    My clients fall into the small business category with a resounding thump! They are not tech savvy and can just about understand CMS as meaning they do not have to pay me through the nose to do content updates for them. That in itself is usually what clinches the deal - and I always have to factor in training time because the admin of Sitefinity is not designed with these kinds of end users in mind.

    The more I read the responses here, the more I'm starting to realize that $900 is not a lot and can easily be absorbed into any quote. Sitefinity have already agreed to assist me with the one client for whom I haven't completed an existing community edition site - I honestly can't ask for more than that.

    With most competing CMS prices coming in at around $10K, this is still a sweet way to make a few bucks. And although I'm no salesman, I would have to be in the wrong business if I couldn't make this work for both me and the average mom-pop client.

    I wasn't happy with the cavalier way in which Telerik made this announcement, but in light of their explanation it's starting to make sense to me. I think we have to rid ourselves of this ridiculous view that we are entitled to free software. If Telerik can make the CSS and code customization of Sitefinity a more friendly and less time-consuming process, I can easily deliver the goods to a small business for under the $5K mark. If a client can't afford this, don't take the job - move on.

     

    Reply

  • Cormac avatar

    Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    Thanks Gabe for refocussing this.

    I havent given it too much thought but lets look at the what most of these micro-businesses 'need' rather than want.

    1. Its really to establish an online presence,
    2. start marketing themselves,
    3. Give them the ability to update their site and add to it over time (blog/news/page)
    4. to tie in with third party feeds e.g. facebook flickr twitter (done through page / rtb)
    5. Provide them with stats.
    6. Languages to keep it international

    Over and above that I think we are looking at add on's or upgrades. If you want that 'for free' an opensource project is the way to go. If they need these additional modules/features, they can pay for the premium CMS.

    This is why a lot of developers use Wordpress for micro-businesses. An uncomplicated updatable site for cheap. There are add ons etc but its not Dotnetnuke.

    Community Server with Graffitti started going down this promising path but backed out http://graffiticms.com/. Im sure you've seen that.  Also you should look at the Activecollab relaunch issues which we were looking at at the time (go to old forum posts to see the reaction to pricing!!!).

    Limitations that would satisfy the needs of most small business looking to get an updatable small website, would look something like the below:
    1. Normal Pages (possibly limit templates - I dont know if this is even feasible)
    2. One or maybe two modules - probably blog or news
    3. 1-3 users (no versioning or workflow or anything like that).
    4. You could throw in newsletter as its very basic too.

    This will allow most development companies to service most customers through using Telerik. This includes the RAD controls, Sitefinity 'premium' and sitefinity 'basic'.

    I'm not sure going 'Freemium' is correct for the target market either. I think there should be two pricing points (at least). Keep it simple and professional.

    Another tuppence worth!!!




    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    Just adding to the mix.

    I dont know what the law is like in other countries, but where I live, a company cannot sell a product such as a software package, and not provide any support direct for it.

    Free software with community support only, no problem... but as soon as it is sold, a minimum commercial warranty is required.

    Of course, Telerik's current support level is way and above what would be considered an acceptable minimum for an entry-level product, but there must be some direct support to satisfy the warranty requirement, particularly during an initial "installation" phase.

    Typically, for entry-level products, it's something along the lines of, free support for 90 days with a limit of n events, and free access to community forums for ongoing support.

    Reply

  • Posted on Mar 26, 2010 (permalink)

    Yeah, we have at least two products which have an annual maintenance contract of over $10,000....neither of those comes even remotely close to what telerik has in terms of support...and I mean NO WHERE close

    Fantastic company

    Reply

  • james avatar

    Posted on Apr 1, 2010 (permalink)

    Hey,
    as you can see i'm using sitefinity community edition:
    http://www.jamespeckham.com/sitefinity

    but i do not have the ability to download it in the downloads section of this site. I definitely downloaded it on my account originally. I intended to use this for a non-profit organization who wished to test the waters. Once things get rolling is there an upgrade path to 4.0 if they are able to afford it? our primary concern is getting up and running cheaply (it's non-profit and donors are slim at the beginning).

    Can you help me get access to download community edition? 

    thanks.

    Reply

  • bemara57 Master avatar

    Posted on Apr 1, 2010 (permalink)

    My input is to keep things simple by making the Free/Community/Lite versions same as Enterprise, but only limiting the # of users and a few other things (versioning, multi-language, and workflow are perfect for Enterprise).

    If a company can afford to pay employees, then they can afford to buy an enterprise version. Otherwise limiting the features of the scaled down version will stunt the growth of community contributions.

    Reply

  • bemara57 Master avatar

    Posted on Apr 8, 2010 (permalink)

    ...OR give a free edition only to those who contribute back to Sitefinity with plugins, community participation, articles, etc.

    Telerik can even use the whole points system to give a "Lite" version that can only be purchased through points. It's a win-win for all and a pretty revolutionary type of community model. I would definitely support that.

    Reply

  • james avatar

    Posted on Apr 8, 2010 (permalink)

    Thank you for fixing my issue!

    Reply

  • Richard Warner avatar

    Posted on Apr 8, 2010 (permalink)

    oh great I just added a form module that is dependent on 3.7 SP2. You would have thought that the WPI from Microsoft would at least be up to date.

    Shouldn't the modules dependent on specific service packs also be removed from the site if they are no longer compatible. I take it that upgrading from community to standard may also be an issue?

    Reply

  • Georgi Georgi admin's avatar

    Posted on Apr 8, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi Anthony,

    You should only rebuilt the module in Visual Studio, with the version you need. Of course, the old references should be removed first. 

    Best wishes,
    Georgi
    the Telerik team

    Do you want to have your say when we set our development plans? Do you want to know when a feature you care about is added or when a bug fixed? Explore the Telerik Public Issue Tracking system and vote to affect the priority of the items.

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 9, 2010 (permalink)

    Well here are my two cents on the pricing.

    a) Everyone who has ever used telerik Support knows that they are just simple the best. And I mean it. Never ever have I seen a firm doing so much for its clients way out of what you can expect. (Trust me I am a one man show doing from design, to programming, marketing, print everything myself - so I appreciate the support a whole heap)

    b) I mostly work for small firms that have very limited budgets. So if I build a site for 3000 USD allmost a third is eaten up by the CMS. So this leaves me only 2000 USD to actually work for the client.

    c) Sitefinity is the only CMS I have seen in 10 years of my business that can be handed over to the client without a one day course and refreshers as soon as they have not used it for 10 days.

    d) Some features are missing for me from a non developer must use it as easy as possible point of view.
    Here are two simple examples so you know what I mean

    - Target Link _blank (I know its not XHTML confirm but loved by many - So it could be turned on/off and not have to be implemented on every project

    - BackEnd Translation done by Telerik and not community

    So if the free Comunity version is gone this is what I think would be a price I would be willing to pay

    Free Version 
    ------------------------
    - No multi Lingual Support
    - No rollback
    - No workflow
    - Support only by community
    - Backend english only
    - limited to 1 user
    - limited to 25 page
    - limited modules (some modules)

    Base Version 399.- USD
    ------------------------
    - No multi Lingual Support
    - No rollback
    - No workflow
    - Support only by community
    - Maybe 10 support request to be handled by Telerik per year
    - Backend english only
    - all modules
    + Minor Updates .X are free
    + Major Updates X. will cost 199.- USD

    Full Version 999.-
    -----------------------
    + multi lingual support
    + rollback
    + workflow
    + support by telerik
    + Backend Translations by Telerik (Easy switch)
    + Minor Updates .X are free
    + Major Updates X. will cost 499.- USD

    Any price above this will cut my chances to be using Sitefinity by 99% and that would really make me sad.

    I have looked at many CMS and Sitefinity is just the simplest around. There must be a way off keeping the price low with more customers.

    Regards Markus

    Reply

  • Grant avatar

    Posted on Apr 15, 2010 (permalink)

    Thanks for the update, Vassil. It seems that the majority of the people here believe in the product and just want to ensure that they can continue to use it in a cost effective way.

    With that being said, I would strongly urge Telerik to consider still offering a free license for personal use. I use CE presently for my personal site (just a blog and career information) and much of what I have learned on my hobby site has made it's way into production on a Standard Edition installation for clients (we presently recommend SE for all clients). It's for this reason that a free version for developers with hobby sites is so very appealing. But, I cannot justify spending the money on a SE license just for my personal site. I understand that the license for CE was abused, but please consider ammending this license to still allow such scenarios for Sitefinity developers who use Sitefinity for their own hobby sites. I make no money off of my hobby site, but I do learn more and more about Sitefinity by operating it.

    Also, please consider the pricing for NPOs. My church uses Sitefinity CE and they have had a huge adoption of the site because of the capabilities of Sitefinity. Unfortunately, if the CE edition is gone, this will greatly affect their Web initiatives. The pricing doesn't have to be free for NPOs, but I believe right now you offer a 10% discount for NPOs and I don't think that will be significant enough to justify using the product, at least in my situation. Again I'd like to stress, that it doesn't need to be free, but for an NPO the price needs to be palatable.

    All in all, it's a great product and I truly look forward to being able to use it for many many projects to come. Thanks for your time.

    Grant

    Reply

  • bemara57 Master avatar

    Posted on Apr 15, 2010 (permalink)

    Limiting the database on the free edition to only XML is another way commercial software handle this. But I'm sure Telerik knows what they're doing. The new site is great and confirms my assumptions that their focus is to be made off the vertical array of Telerik products long term rather than just a CMS. The CMS can be looked at as the gateway to Telerik rapid development. I hope the CMS does not become a bottleneck :)

    Reply

  • Cormac avatar

    Posted on Apr 16, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi Markus, great post.

    However do you think a page limit is really the way to go?
    As we know websites need to be updated regularly to be relevant. This usually involves a blog or news/events section or similar. This is true for sites for personal use, micro business, SME or enterprises.

    I believe a page limit is an unworkable solution as this really is a 'necessity' and it wouldnt take many posts to reach your limit (you may have envisaged posts/news not counting as 'pages' so apologies if I misunderstood).

    This is why I believe simple module restrictions, and possibly template and user restrictions may be better. E.g.
    3 templates (may be difficult to implement)
    One user login,
    Pages module
    Blog or news module
    Newsletter (unless this is in line to be radically improved)

    Also would you think that 3 versions will require more maintenance.

    What do you think?
    thanks
    Cormac

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 16, 2010 (permalink)

    Dear Cormac

    Thanks for the flowers.

    a) I think a page limit would be very easy to implment
    b) for a free CMS you should not expect anything at all. There are a lot of good free Blog tools
    c) Of course having more then one version is more complicated. Look at Apple they have only 1 phone to maintain compared to Nokia with at least 100 phones

    Base line would be that the free version is the simple tool to get Telerik and Sitefinity know. The bait (or if you don't like that term the trial version)

    After that any customer can feel free to upgrade once he/she knows that sitefintiy it the way to go.

    Regards Markus

    Reply

  • Cormac avatar

    Posted on Apr 16, 2010 (permalink)

    The flowers were for Gabe!!!

    Well I think we're agreed that you need some sort of accessible/low cost access point to the product/s for smaller companies.
    I think it should be a reduced solution for which some fee is charged not unlike the split that Activecollab do.

    I suppose the concern is that telerik will slowly change their target market. i.e. they will slowly position themselves at a slightly higher level moving closer to another enterprise level CMS. Pricing would reflect this positioning change.
    I dont think this will happen, but I hope that servicing smaller companies is still part of the plan.


    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 16, 2010 (permalink)

    Dear Cormac

    QUOTE
    Hi Markus, great psot
    UNQUOTE

    That's why I said thanks for the flowers.
    -----------------

    I suppose the concern is that telerik will slowly change their target market. i.e. they will slowly position themselves at a slightly higher level moving closer to another enterprise level CMS

    This hits the nail right on the head. I am very afraid that this would happen. I have been in web design for over 11 years and Sitefinity is the first CMS that I can hand over to my clients without the fear that I have to give them a new course on every Monday or even after lunch because they are so complicated and overloaded.

    Sitefintiy is for me simple the best for endusers.

    ------------------
    I always wished that telerik would move in another direction. Judging from the sensational support they are giving I assume that they are afraid they get more customers like me and would have troubles keeping up the unbelivable high standard of support.

    That's why I had the idea that the free version would relay on Community Support. Base Version could have a limited number of incidents.

    ------------------

    Regards Markus

    Reply

  • Matt Swaffer avatar

    Posted on Apr 17, 2010 (permalink)

    I got here because I am evaluating CMS's and Sitefinity was recommended.  I am in the position to recommend CMS's to small businesses and non-profits.  In addition, the company I work for uses Community Server but we aren't completely happy with the product.

    That said, I am stopping off here long enough to say I am moving on since there isn't a free edition for me to put into place.  I know there is a trial, but I actually have a hobby site that I want to put a good CMS on and I am looking for new ones to try out. 

    There is a reason that Microsoft gives away FREE versions of Sql Server and Visual Studio even though these products are very expensive.  The first hit is always free... :) 

    Love Telerik and all you guys do but without a free version I doubt I will ever find out just how good Sitefinity really is...

    Now back to my search... I really hope DNN isn't the best I can find! :)

    (Oh yeah.. kudos on the sign up process for the forums... 30 seconds indeed)




    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 19, 2010 (permalink)

    Here is a short matrix how I could imagine Sitefinity Community Edition Future

    www.marktold.com/ce

    Is it not funny how community members like me always hope to influence business decitions of firms with over 200 employees :-)  Nevertheless one can try.

    Regards Markus

    PS: Hope I will be able to use Telerik Produkts in the Future.

    Reply

  • oVan avatar

    Posted on Apr 20, 2010 (permalink)

    Here are my observations on all of the great comments above...

    * I live in a multi-lingual country. The best argument to ever win a client for Sitefinity would be that it has multi-lingual support baked in. So a Small Biz version really should have this.

    * I don't agree with the unlimited number of pages. If it is a small business, they've probably limited marketing resources and will not need hundres of pages. Set a limit to 25 or whatever. If they need more, they're probably not small biz.

    * Support: why would a small web developer (like me) need 10 incidents per Sitefinity install per year? Make it one or two incidents, there's always the community forum for most questions. One of the best things about all Telerik products is that almost all community/help information is found on the Telerik websites themselves. Every time I look something up in Google, I end up in the forums or documentation of Telerik. This makes (almost) every single customer value the great support we get from Telerik. So, don't cut on the range of support options, but push the community options harder than the direct support options (or limit them in number).

    * From my point of vue, I can agree with a price point of $400/$1000, but I don't think there should be a free version. There are loads of free cms solutions out there. Nobody will ever appreciate the true quality of Sitefinity if it is free. Free equals low quality in many minds. I had two potential clients for the full version, but in the end the deal was off because of license + development costs. The free version was not an option in their minds, an affordable version would have been ideal.

    Kind regards,
    oVan
    (Olivier Vanbiervliet)

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 20, 2010 (permalink)

    Dear Olvier

    I live in Switzerland were german, french and italian is spoken. If I am small biz I would expect my business to be local so in one of the 3 languages. Otherwise an extra 600 USD for a CSM is not that much if you think of it as a 3 year investment (or say 17 USD a month extra)

    So the upgrade is even for a small biz firm afordable.

    ---------------
    About the community support. If you look at how many posts have anwsers from telerik employees than you will notice that the community is realy backed by telerik in a huge way.

    So when I talk about community I talk about pure community - no telerik involvment.

    ---------------
    This said I think having a free version could make sence to attrakt customers, make sitefinity know so it might be recomended if someone needs a very good CMS. Alos it could make the community bigger.

    -------------

    I can live without a free version. Just hope I can still aford to use it for my SmallBiz clients. And don't forget - neither you nor I are on the telerik board of directors. So who are we to talk here :-)

    Have a nice day. Seems 4.0 Beta is on its way. Once we checked this we might have an total new view. Looking forward to it.

    Regards Markus

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 20, 2010 (permalink)

    The solution here seems like a no brainer to me. Allow the free version only for Charities and non commercial use. A license key will be required for the free version which locks the registered URL  to the key. The keys and their registered urls are stored by Telerik, which has the obvious effect of deterring customers from removing the sitefinity logo as the site can be reviewed by Telerik at any time. Free license keys can only get community support via the forums.

    Really does seem easy to me. Just implement a license key which has a 1:1 relationship with the registered URL. Am I missing something here, just seems like the correct solution.

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 20, 2010 (permalink)

    I feel it is a mistake to not provide a community edition. If you look at the widespread use and growth of DNN, most of this can be attributed to the community edition of the software. Thousands of modules and skins are available to extend the app and with Telerik no long providing community edition, this will prevent such growth.

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 21, 2010 (permalink)

    I have done two Large Business sites, and two community sites with Sitefinity.  Currently I am getting ready to upgrade one of the community sites(a site I am part owner of) to the commerical version, next month we will start making a profit I hope.  The other community site is my own site. 

    I try to push Sitefinity to the designer I do business with, however she does not want to pay the price since I created a nice simple CMS in asp.net.  This was before I knew about Sitefinity, sorry I did that now.  Sitefinity is easier to develop for.  She finds the custom cms good enough for small businesses.   In todays market where we compete with other CMS systems like Wordpress, we have to offer a site for around $1200 dollars to get business.  Most of the small companies in my area are less then 50 employees. 

    I have a non-profit project in the pipeline who wants to use Sitefinity, but wants to use the community edition.  I attempted to push them to the commercial verstion for the extra features. 

    $900 dollars is a great deal for what you get with Sitefinity, however raising the price will not sale more copies.   I will need to see 4.0 to see if it is worth more than 900. 

    With today's market place, people will just go back to their own home grown CMS system or some free PHP system for small business.  I have no problem convincing a coorporation to move to Sitefinity, but a small business is another story.     

    I think you need to put clearer rules out their for what the community edition can be use for.  Like you can not use it for a web site that is a commericial business. 

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 21, 2010 (permalink)

    I ran into this problem last week trying to get a bid..."why pay $900 when we can use wordpress for free...it's a 'CMS' "

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 21, 2010 (permalink)

    There is one more thing that usually can be a killer.

    Some of my clients have more then one core business. Lets say they sell cars but also have a carwash.

    It is the same customer but two aboslute different website so this would result in 2x 900 USD for the customer. Even if I can convince them for one copy it will near to impossible for the second one.

    Looking forward to 4.0 and trust that Sitefintiy/Telerik will still be the future for my customers and business.

    Regards Markus

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 21, 2010 (permalink)

    The solution here seems like a no brainer to me. Allow the free version only for Charities and non commercial use. A license key will be required for the free version which locks the registered URL  to the key. The keys and their registered urls are stored by Telerik, which has the obvious effect of deterring customers from removing the sitefinity logo as the site can be reviewed by Telerik at any time. Free license keys can only get community support via the forums.



    Above, might be a good ideal. 

    Reply

  • Chris avatar

    Posted on Apr 26, 2010 (permalink)

    I know I'm late to the suggestions here, but one thing that was tough for me to swallow was that the license was per domain, and it was non transferrable (at least according to the salewoman I spoke to).  The problem I have is that I have a few entreprenueral clients that come up with ideas, some work, some don't.  I'd love to have an easy to use CMS where we could get an idea rolling.  I can shell out the $900, but not if after a few weeks we find out the project is a dud, and we've completely lost the $900 license.  If we could use it on other projects, that would be great. 

    I also have some not for profits that'd I'd love to see a free or deeply discounted pricing.  Since a lot of the work I do for them is pro bono, I don't want to shell out the cash myself, and would rather use one of the free products out there. 

    I fully understand the need to make money, I have a business to run myself :)  But there has been some great products out there that have seemed to thrive with a free entry product (e.g., Umbraco).  Telerik has some of the most highly respected support, so why not try to captalize on a support model vs. a licensing fee for your CMS product?  After all, if you rely on the product, all it takes is for someone to come along with a better product and your done.  Better to have a larger user base and following with an in-flux of support, suggestions, and thriving community (who can help you guys grow and market your product for you) .  Sure, you might think you're losing revenue by not getting some of those "leechers" to pay, but trust me, they ain't paying no matter what.  They'll go find a free product. 

    Reply

  • MB Master avatar

    Posted on Apr 27, 2010 (permalink)

    Regarding the transfer of licenses... yes, I've encountered the same issue when discussing the use of Sitefinity with a customer who operates as an event promoter. This customer may have many events on the go, and each event may have its own unique domain... so that it presents an independent presence. However, each event may well be a one-off thing... and if it's not a success, then it may well never be repeated. Hence, there was a lot of resistance to spending money on a license that might be a throw-away item (and they didn't want to use url redirections) and they said no... and we went another way.

    I would imagine that Telerik could manage this issue with some sort of license registration and activation service... where a site registers its license with a Telerik webservice, when it starts up. This allows Telerik to check the license against the registered domain. Obviously, that then opens the door for transferring a license, as Telerik can verify that a license is only being used for the currently registered domain, and not for multiple domains.

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 27, 2010 (permalink)

    Markus
    About the community support. If you look at how many posts have anwsers from telerik employees than you will notice that the community is realy backed by telerik in a huge way.
    So when I talk about community I talk about pure community - no telerik involvment.

    Hi Markus,

       You have a good point here.  That is where the community needs to step in, and post answer to some of the simpler question.  I try to post if I see something I am in the know about, other than that I to busy coding controls for sitefinity sites. 

    David 

     

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 27, 2010 (permalink)

    Hey Gabe,

      Here is my input for what the community version (free to non-profit and developers for their personal business/blog  who submits one control to market place).  Cost for small business $399
      -  20 pages limit
      -  5 Admin, my experience is about 3 admin roles on my on custom CMS
       - leave the public roles for sites with membership forums, maybe a max of 100 public members
       -  Limit the blog to one blog
      - no versioning or workflow
      -  usable by small business for $399
      - usable by non-profit with non-profit id
      - No Newsletters
      - Limit Events to 10
      - No upload of Controls

      What CMS is over $10,000?  I guess that is why I have never heard of them.  I notice someone else mention no custom module support.  I think custom modules should be allow to be plug in via the web.config.  This will encourage more developers to create modules. 

      

    Reply

  • Chris avatar

    Posted on Apr 27, 2010 (permalink)

    There are lots of CMS softare that cost over $10k.  MOSS can be in the millions for large organizations, SiteCore, Vignette etc.  Even open source software like Alfresco can be tens of thousands in support.  But with all due respect, Sitefinity isn't in that class of software, but I think the comparison was made that Sitefinity have a lot of attractive features that are more polished/easier to use than in some of those larger products. 

    Reply

  • Posted on Apr 27, 2010 (permalink)

    As a user of alfresco btw...their support is HORRIBLE compared to telerik on their worst day.

    It's like having an IM conversation on their ticket system where every 2-3 days you get a one sentence response which usually has nothing to do with your last message or the resolution of the ticket...

    Reply

  • Chris avatar

    Posted on Apr 27, 2010 (permalink)

    Haha, that's great, Steve; I'm not looking forward to that .  A company I work with is migrating from CMS 2002 to Alfresco.  Unfortunately we had zero say in the matter, and since the powers that be say we're supposed to be doing all things J2EE, so that's where it's landed.  There's also a IBM Portal implementation, along with a WSS 3 setup, all within one intranet. 

    Outside of them, I'm looking for a lightweight CMS to help some nonprofits and other small business manage their own websites, which explains my interested in Sitefinity.  In the case of the non profits, I was considering even buying them a Sitefinity licensing, but image how upset I'd be if they didn't like it and I couldn't transfer to license to another project or even just myself!

    Reply

  • David Underwood avatar

    Posted on May 3, 2010 (permalink)

    I have been trying to standardize on a single CMS to use for both businesses as well as the non-profit work that I do on my personal time. I have many non-profit sites and until recently it has been easier for me just to roll them using Wordpress with custom themes especially with the large plugin base available. I thought I had found something excellent in Sitefinity as it could be used not only for business projects (standard to enterprise) but also for small businesses who couldn't afford a CMS and the non-profit applications. I hate to see the community edition is being dropped. I am really not sure where to go from here as I'd once looked at Umbraco for this solution but I'd rather stick to one singular platform. Hopefully we can see a more tiered approach to licensing for Sitefinity 4 which will allow for usage in these differing environments.

    Reply

  • Chris avatar

    Posted on May 3, 2010 (permalink)

    David,

    I'm in exactly the same boat.  That holds true for my personal blog site as well as some nonprofits.  It really just comes down to the amount of time I have to spend to learn/master a product.  I'd rather not have to have three different products if I didn't have to. 

    Reply

  • Nigel avatar

    Posted on May 6, 2010 (permalink)

    Very late in the conversation, and some very interesting points put in above. But now for my 2 cents.

    Firstly, let me say I understand completely the need to either drop CE, or limit it. I also understand from a development and maintenance point of view the expense that comes with releasing more than one version. So I understand why telerik would be looking at making just the STD version available.

    I have believed for a long time, well ever since I started using SiteFinity as my core business offering a year ago, that there needs be be a product between community and standard. As some people have pointed out, there is a market out there for the $1,200 - $1,500 website, where the $900 standard price just doesn't fit with the need for design and customization, and these sorts of clients really do not care about versioning and workflow (as nice as it would be). However if there was a product in the middle, that only offered the removal of the logo above the community version (so exactly the same as CE, but no logo requirement) for around $400, then this can fit in the pricing module

    You could limit the numbers of content pages (excluding forum, blogs etc as I would imagine that this would be a technical nightmare, and in reality, blogs do not replace the need for content pages) and this would fit nicely in SMB requirements as most sites in this bracket only have 5-15 pages anyway. More than this and it falls into a higher price bracket due to development costs anyway.

    Custom Modules MUST be allowed in all versions. This is my, and many developers, core business levelage. I have developed a suite of modules that can be plugged in when required, and this really can not be removed from the SMB version (the CE, if it even existed, could have this limitation as lets face it, it's free).

    The long and the short of it, I can live without the CE version, and have been watching the SiteFinity site intently for the last year for a licence that took the CE version, allowed the removal of the logo, but offered no STD features. Most SMB clients really do not care about the STD feature set, so convincing them to upgrade has been a uphill fight. I want these customers who are using CE to pay Telerik of the fantastic product they are using. But getting these SMB to basicily double the price of the website has lost me business (yes I have tried, and yes I have used sales people). The fact of the matter is web development is a high competition market, and the end customers really do not have a clue. Steve's post hits this on the head "I ran into this problem last week trying to get a bid..."why pay $900 when we can use wordpress for free...it's a 'CMS' "", Why because wordpres $#@$s, and SiteFinity ROCKS, but these SMB managers only see the $$$ and think apples are apples.

    I have no desire to develop in any other system other than SiteFinity. I love every (well almost every) part of the system, and developing for the system is one of the easiest, and cleanest platforms I have developed for. However at the end of the day it does not matter what I want, my target business sector is what makes the decisions, and if I can not continue to offer entry level CMS systems at $1,200 then they will go to the DotNetNuke developer across the road who can.

    I hope that internally the SiteFinity staff can come to a decision that both keeps the product maintainable, as the industry needs SiteFinity, but offers solutions to all sectors of the market, from SMB to large corporations.

    Just some quick stats, in my local region 80% of business employee less than 5 people, 17% employee up to 50 people and 3% employee more than 50. So lets keep the 80% of the market space in our sights.

    Regards

    Reply

  • Mike avatar

    Posted on May 11, 2010 (permalink)

    I realize I'm posting a bit late here, but thought I'd add my two cents.  The main reason I'm using the community edition instead of paying for the standard edition is because the standard edition license only applies to a single domain.  My employer owns a collection of small businesses, each with its own domain.  We have four websites (each hosted separately), and each site has multiple domain names.  These sites are all relatively small, so I can't justify spending $899 on each of the sites individually, but I would gladly pay $899 or even a bit more for a license that covered all of the domains owned by my employer.  It would be nice if there were a less expensive option for multiple domains under common ownership - either a single license that covers multiple domains or a reduction in price for each additional domain (full price for the first domain, 1/2 price for the second, 1/3 price for the third, etc.).  Also, making the licenses transferable to new domains would be extremely helpful.

    Reply

  • Posted on May 11, 2010 (permalink)

    The transferable option would be really nice. I just got burned as a site I completed was live for less than a month and now the company that I did the site for is filing for bankruptcy. Yes my fault for not getting them to pay for the licence up front but I had done business in the past and they always paid. This time around, I'm out of the labour costs and I can't even transfer that license to another site to try and help recoup my money, even though the domain will be disappearing from the web two months after buying the license. A lesson learned from me, but also food for thought when working with a product that has a non transferable license.

    All this aside, it's still an amazing CMS...

    Cheers,
    Phill

    Reply

  • Mike avatar

    Posted on May 12, 2010 (permalink)

    One other thought I had was if it might be possible to somehow vary the price based on the number of developers working on each site.  It seems strange that a single developer working on a handful of small sites would be asked to pay significantly more than a team of developers working on a very large site.

    Reply

  • Posted on May 12, 2010 (permalink)

    DNN has Community Edition
    SharePoint has SharePoint Services

    Telerik needs to have a free version as well so 

    In addition once you pay for DNN or SharePoint, you are not restricted to one domain name or site.
    I like sitefinity it is a good CMS, however Telerik is being too restrictive to where we cannot develop or test without forking out $899. They will not get my biz for CMS with these elitist tactics. They do have some of the best products. But I have seen too many companies end up in this position and fall because they get too big headed.


    Reply

  • Andy avatar

    Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    First, sorry for the cross post on the previous thread...this is the thread I meant.
    I spent this weekend learning about the alternatives for my charity.  I have to say that there are many and that Sitefinity still seems the best for a .net developer.  Maybe that 's because I have invested so much time learning it and getting good at using it.  Having been in the software business (I have owned my own software business for years) I feel that Telerik will live to regret this.  The industry has changed dramatically in the past 20 years and Telerik has failed 2 new fronts.  They do not give much incentive to invest the time into their product and they have just killed their good will.  I manage a 25 developer force and was steering them to Sitefinity (paid version).  NO LONGER.

    I feel completely cheated.  You had a CE and now do not?!  Please someone show me another example in the past 5 years where another company actually did this and they 'succeeded'.  I am flabbergasted.

    The Telerik business model is an interesting one.  I have been a paying customer in the past and found the software a bit too 'edgy' (as in buggy) for the price and have gone with more tried and true components.  They seem a little scatter brained.  Rather than deliver something great, they decide to be everything to everyone and fail.  The removal of Sitefinity CE is probably the final blow for me.  I will invest my time in KooBoo, N2 or Umbraco rather than be a slave to the whims of Telerik.  

    Frankly, I wish all of us dedicated Sitefinity users would figure out a way to get these competing Open Source CMS systems up to the quality we all dream about.

    So as the software industry goes in a different direction I bid Telerik a final adieu and Good Luck Telerik, you are gonna need it.  I do not have the time to invest in your model since you just kicked my model in the teeth and now I have to reinvest elsewhere.


    Reply

  • Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    Hmmm Umbraco and Kooboo looks interesting. Does anyone have experience using either of them?

    Reply

  • Andy avatar

    Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    I forgot mojoPortal too.

    Reply

  • Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    @andy

    a) Sitefinity CE 3.7 will be around for longer
    b) One thing I am sure you can not argue - Telerik Support is the best you will ever find
    c) Who are we to tell Telerik how to go about the business
    d) I agree that there is room for improvment in the product to come
    e) I think a simple good bye from you would have done ;-)

    @JoshAndersan

    In my experiance you can test the full version without any problem. All you will see is a "you are using a trial version" once in a while. Other then that you can test it any way you want.

    @Mike
    Beein a one man show to me it would be better if the price would drop with each licence I own.

    @PhillHodgkinson
    Have you tried to talk to sales about your problem?

    @Mike
    Exactely what I have often. My Clients (mostly very small firms) do often two things with are related but different. I had one running a bike shop and drive limousine in spar time. Another fixing heating and selling Hot-tubs. So for these it would be nice if we had a "per firm" license.

    @telerik
    NPO 10% is very small discount. We have a lot of schools in Switzerland with about 150 studens. A 40% discount would be appreciated but again I do agree that Telerik needs to make money and is not a cherity organisation.

    PS: The better 4.0 is the less support is needed and you can save manpower (support will not like this statement) or have more manpower for development. So once again I rather have a 4.0 by the July 2011 that is really polished then anything fast by the end of 2010.

    Thanks to telerik for all the support you have always provided. Its simply the best support you can get.

    Regards Markus

    PS: I don't work for telerik but feel free to shred my coments :-)

    Reply

  • Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    The main reason I like sitefinity over the other CMS listed above:  The End User's Experience.

    Once I get the site up and running, the client is able to manage their own website without bugging me as much.  Of course I train my clients on how to create, delete and edit content.

    Reply

  • Andy avatar

    Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    Markus:

    a) Sitefinity CE 3.7 will be around for longer
    Why would I continue to invest in a dead end, closed source product?

    b) One thing I am sure you can not argue - Telerik Support is the best you will ever find
    I have had little exposure to their support, but from all the comments it must be fantastic.

    c) Who are we to tell Telerik how to go about the business
    We are their customers.  We have choices.  My usual MO is to stay quiet.  This was such an unusual event that I felt I owed it to Telerik to let them know how I felt.  If they are going to continue to be great, customers like me, who voice their dissatisfaction,  are priceless.  If the are going to be mediocre, customers like me, are a nuisance.

    d) I agree that there is room for improvment in the product to come
    Great.

    e) I think a simple good bye from you would have done ;-)
    I thought I was doing Telerik and the soon-to-be-a-much-smaller-group, Sitefinity community, a favor.  To each his own I s'pose.

    I did not intend to offend any one in any of my remarks.  The negative impact of Telerik's decision is profound to me and my charity.  BTW:  In addition to selling several businesses on Telerik Subscriptions,   I have sold 2 businesses on the paid version of Sitefinity using my reputation and my great experience with Sitefinity.  This was how I paid Telerik for the software.  I think they got their moneys worth and then some.  They deserve to understand what seems obvious to me.

    I recommend to all to read "Free: The Future of a Radical Price" by Chris Anderson.  Digital businesses are now required to move in this direction or risk doom.

    Reply

  • Posted on May 17, 2010 (permalink)

    Hey everyone,

    As you might imagine, these decisions take time.  I only wanted to post to reassure everyone that we are reading and discussing every single reply to this post.  To Andy's point:

    This was such an unusual event that I felt I owed it to Telerik to let them know how I felt.  If they are going to continue to be great, customers like me, who voice their dissatisfaction,  are priceless.  If the are going to be mediocre, customers like me, are a nuisance.

    You aren't a nuisance.  We want your perspective.  This thread is already packed with great suggestions.  We're trying to find a solution that addresses our business concerns, as well as the community's concerns.  Read Vassil's post (far above) for Telerik's perspective.

    Beyond that, please understand that these conversations involve a lot of diverse people (sales, marketing, developers, management, etc.).  Each of these groups (rightfully so) have goals and responsibilities of their own.  Finding an effective solution requires us to address each of these concerns.  To do this, I can't simply show everyone Chris Anderson's book.  This doesn't effectively counter a budget, a market forecast or a sales projection report.  

    Ultimately, this is why this thread is useful.  This is giving us some of the raw numbers and specifics needed to craft a solution.  I'm not 100% in the loop on what is being chatted about lately, but I know we're trying.  Keep the feedback coming!

    Gabe Sumner
    Developer Evangelist
    Telerik | Sitefinity CMS

    Reply

  • Posted on May 22, 2010 (permalink)

    Since SP3 you can store images and documents now in the file system instead of the database this such a big help to me that I would miss SF so much if there would not be a small business version.

    So I sure hope Telerik will reach a decition to lauch 4.0 with a entry level version at some price.

    SF simply is the best CMS for me and it would be sad not to be able to use it anymore because clients can not pay the full version, full price.

    Regards Markus

    Thanks Telerik for superb support and great products!

    Reply

  • Andrew Wrigley avatar

    Posted on Jun 7, 2010 (permalink)

    I am hooked on Sitefinity.  ALL our clients are requesting CMS and Sitefinity delivers.  It can be a bit slow, but otherwise...

    If there had not been a free edition, I would have gone with CommunityServer.  But there was, and so Sitefinity it is.

    I have no problem with paying, now that I know the product is great and serves our needs.  It adds US$ 1000 to the clients bill, but you get what you pay for.  And if some of the extra profit goes into making Sitefinity better, then everyone benefits.

    The problem I have with no community edition, is that without it, I wouldn't have 'bought into' sitefinity, and I wouldn't now be looking at other Telerik products.

    Put it this way.  A large community of users has provided Telerik with feedback.  And we have benefited from a tool that delivers functionality that our clients request. 

    So we're all happy (or should be...).

    I have a number of clients who will go with the existing community edition and who will then upgrade at some future date.  So their strategy is a good one.  For me at least.

    Andrew


    Reply

  • Gary avatar

    Posted on Jun 12, 2010 (permalink)

    I am very excited about the new sitefinity 4.0 CMS.  It looks easy enough to customize with enough features that I might have time to build my personal website as well as integrate my learned skills to make a web site to sell my company on the product.  I am concerned that if you remove the Community Edition (CE) and/or cut it's features down too severely it may be an end of my hopes to make a rich, easy to manage, CMS enabled website.   My organization is on a tight budget atm and will not invest in a product that I cannot first sell them on.   

    It seems to me that a change to the product  licensing agreement that limits the CE product to personal and or development purposes with no redistribution privileges would solve the business needs of Telerik|sitefinity and still leave a window open for users like me who are just starting to use the product and who still need experience in customizing the product to sell an organization on its capabilities.

    Thanks,

    Gary

    Reply

  • James Reategui avatar

    Posted on Jul 18, 2010 (permalink)

    Now that SF 4.0 is in beta, I found it appropriate to add in my recommendation for the licensing scheme.
    A paid for only version is fine, but if Telerik wants large adoption they should do something that Microsoft also does:

    Telerik should mirror what Microsoft does for some of their products licensing:
    We have about 20+ Windows server 2008 installations. We pay around $20 per month for each of these, and we can quickly scale up or down as client's needs arise. It makes selling easy because it is just a small fee to our clients per month instead of an upfront fee of $1029.

    How does Telerik make money?
    You should expect to equalize your gains + interest rate over about 4 years. Ie. with the current SF pricing of $720 up front (with the 20% discount that most seem to get now...) and then the $270 additional per year, over 4 years you Telerik makes: $1,530 . Divide 1530 / 48 and you get $32 / month. Now, you guys probably want to charge some interest for that financing style so you would multipy the 1530 x interest rate over 4 years at lets say 10% compounded yearly, and your monthly fee would end up at around $42...
    Or better even don't chare interest!

    I can easily sell SF for $42 / month to my clients (or less without interest :).

    We normally charge a bunch of money for this kind of business insight consulting btw, but you get it for free :)

    Reply

  • Cormac avatar

    Posted on Aug 16, 2010 (permalink)

    A small suggestion...
    If you do launch the limited version, you might consider offering a low priced license to upgrade from CE. You would have to assess the merits by looking at usage numbers etc but Ive outlined the idea below.

    The idea is that you could be able to upgrade existing websites running CE to the limited version for 99 euro or similar (assuming the limited version costs 200-400 dollars).

    1. Reduce versions in use: This will help reduce the amount of users of the older 'unsupported' CE system.
    2. It puts more people on the same page. By extension this will increase the amount of developers/owners using the newer system. This would improve community participation and module development, as well as expanding the market. 
    3. Generate renewed interest. It will re-introduce a large amount of one off or trial developers and site owners to the better 4.X limited version of sitefinity. They may have used Sitefinity for one site and then left it alone due to cost or functionality concerns. This could reignite their interest in Sitefinity.
    4. Apply a time limit: By applying a time limit it generates a burst of activity in 4.0.As its a bit of a jump from 3.xs the more people using it and giving feedback the better.
    5. Help the developers/sellers: By standardising the versions It would also help reduce the support time for companies/developers that manage multiple Sitefinity editions for their clients.
    6. Gives developers/sellers excuse to reengage:  It gives the developers another reason to go back to people using CE and up-sell them. Perhaps selling improvements at the same time. The time limit would help here too.
    7. Reward: It could be viewed as a reward for active CE users & charities, to upgrade the functionality of their site or reduce bugs.

    Feel free to tear the idea asunder!

    Cormac

    Reply

  • Pete Eberbach avatar

    Posted on Sep 13, 2010 (permalink)

    We have a copy of Community Edition that we'd like to use for a local non-profit.  Is is still OK to do so?  Does it require a license?  If so, can we still register it?

    Thanks for your time.

    Reply

  • Grisha 'Greg' Karanikolov Grisha 'Greg' Karanikolov admin's avatar

    Posted on Sep 14, 2010 (permalink)

    Hi Pete,

    It is totally OK to use your copy of the Community Edition of Sitefintiy for your local non-profit. It does not require a license, you can create and deploy your website straight away. All that is required from you is to put the "Powered by Sitefinity" logo somewhere on your pages.

    Best wishes,
    Grisha Karanikolov
    the Telerik team
    Do you want to have your say when we set our development plans? Do you want to know when a feature you care about is added or when a bug fixed? Explore the Telerik Public Issue Tracking system and vote to affect the priority of the items

    Reply

  • Pete Eberbach avatar

    Posted on Sep 14, 2010 (permalink)

    Thanks, Grisha!  We have 6 or 7 other clients using the licensed version and all love it.  Looking forward to 4.0.

    Pete

    Reply

  • Joseph avatar

    Posted on Oct 20, 2010 (permalink)

    The $900 price point is holding me back right now.

    I want to purchase 3 licenses, two for my own personal projects and 1 for an internal site at the university where I work. I can't afford the $1800 for two tiny personal sites and it is going to take a lot of people approving the purchase of $900 at work.    There is no way $900, or $1800 for that matter, is going to go unnoticed by the wife.  

    If the price were $399 each, there wouldn't be a problem.  It would fit under the radar at work and under the wife's radar at home.


    Reply

  • Mass Media Developer avatar

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  • bleutiger Intermediate avatar

    Posted on Oct 22, 2010 (permalink)

    This is good news.  However,  I am concerned about the page limitation.

    Gabe also mentions in his post

    "With Sitefinity 4.0, the Community Edition will return to its original roots.  Meaning it will only be usable for personal / non-commercial web sites.  In addition, it will be limited to a certain number of pages.  These limitations will make it a good fit for small personal web sites, but an uncomfortable fit for medium-large web sites.  (Which is what Sitefinity Standard is intended for.)"


    What about us small business owners.  I run a business that has 100 plus clients but I am the only employee.  Am I going to be forced to purchase a standard license with a significant price tag just to be able to put more pages out there.  That seems very one sided.

    If they are going to do that then they should have a "Smal Business" edition that would still remove some features like localization and workflow that are unnecessary....like the current community edition but also remove the restriction on the number of pages that you can have in your project.

    This of course would lower the price tag as well.  Maybe to half of a standard license?

    What are everyones thoughts on this?

    Reply

  • Chris avatar

    Posted on Oct 22, 2010 (permalink)

    @bleutiger

    I'm a small business owner with only about 10 clients and feel that the $900 price tag is completely reasonable.  If you have 100 clients, that should be a no brainer.  The way I look at it, is if it saves me 8 hours of work, it's worth the price.  I spend several thousands on MSDN and SQL Server, so this seems great.

    I'm more worried about the unannouced limitations for non-profits, which is why I can't proceed with working with the beta on some projects.  For example, I have one small site that has just a handful of pages, but one small non profit has about 50 or so, because they just have a bunch of small bits of content on each page.  Is the limit going to be 10 pages, 100 pages, 1000 pages?  Seems to me if the spririt of the rule is to help non commerical and not for profits, it'd be easier to not cripple the product for non profits and just set a limit of the NFP's annual budget or something like that.  A lot of software licensing works like this.

    Also I have a big issue with the license not being able to be transferrable.  I went back and forth with a sales agent way too many times, and he just wasn't understanding my scenario, which I thought was pretty clear.  My complaint was, say I come up with a pet project (e.g., www.acmewidgets.com).  I design and develop the site, and put it into production.  After a few months, I see it's not going to work, so I'd like to apply my license to another project (say, www.mynewpetproject.com).  According to the license you can't do this.  He talked a lot about associated (or some other word he used) where you can have two domains going to the same site, but I was trying to explain these are completely seperate projects, but it just wasn't sinking in.  Seems like a strange limitation, so to date I'm exploring other options (e.g., Umbraco).  Overall though, Sitefinity seems a perfect fit for my small projects that I want to get up running quickly, or easily train non technical users, so I'll be hopeful while I await the announced license structure.

    Reply

  • Cormac avatar

    Posted on Oct 22, 2010 (permalink)

    @bleutiger

    If you have time scan down through the posts on this thread where that idea is discussed.

    Many of us hope that there is some 'inbetween' offering on the cards.

    Reply

  • Anthony avatar

    Posted on Oct 22, 2010 (permalink)

    Some time ago, I had to move from Sitefinity because of the $900 price tag. A price of $399 for small businesses might persuade me to try again; I moved to N2 but the documentation is non-existant.

    At any given time, we have about 3/4 new CMS clients who fit into this category and we simply cannot make money of off this at $900 a pop. Hopefully, if a new price tier comes out, it won;t be ruined by an unrealistic page limit. Allow at least 25/30 pages.

    Reply

  • bleutiger Intermediate avatar

    Posted on Oct 22, 2010 (permalink)

    I still say the definition of small business is important and different businesses have different ways of making money as well.

    If you have 10 clients and you make $150,000 a year then maybe $900 is no big deal to you.

    If I have 100 clients and only make $20,000 a year and want to have a great cms like Sitefinity to make sure that I am spending my time on my clients and not on my website then in the grand scheme of things $900 is a much bigger deal.

    Page limitations will kill a product in my opinion.  If you can't build the site you want because you are limited to 15 pages and you can't afford a $900 license because it is too much for your budget then you are going to look for some other product that will meet your needs.

    I use both the community edition and the standard license edition and am happy with both products.  I proudly display the Sitefinity logo on all the community sites that I have helped develop.

    There has to be an in between pricing with no limitation on pages to be successful based on the amount of people that have chosen Sitefinity over other CMS's

    Reply

  • Posted on Nov 11, 2010 (permalink)

    So I think overall we're happy with the "pricing"

    Our issue here is with concurrent backend users.  Having only 10 for an $8000 license seems way low.  What this essentially means for us here at the university is that we're going to not make out data available as modules in the backend but instead have to craft some other admin interface for users.

    Unless this statement means that we can have more than 10 in the backend, but only 10 can be editing something...:
    "A CMS User is an individual who has access to the administrative (content management) capabilities of the SOFTWARE through a unique username and password.

    There are no restrictions on the number of CMS users who work with Sitefinity CMS as long as the number of concurrent users working with the software at any given time does not exceed the number stipulated by the license."

    I'm hoping that doesn't mean we can only have 10 logged in users anywhere (10 uses who have access to the admin area) as we're a password protected site and we'd have over 10 logged in at any given time.

    Reply

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