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Sitefinity 4.0 RC

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  1. KMac
    KMac avatar
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    11 Nov 2010
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    Feels like Christmas today.

    For everyone reading this thread - I'm embedding my comments within the posts.

    Best,
    Vassil Terziev
    CEO/Telerik

    VT>> I am glad you like the new version. I am pretty sure that once you start working with 4.0 you'll appreciate it even more. And you'll see why it took us so long to ship it. It was a big investment for the future - not just for us, but for our customers as well.
  2. Jeff Vail
    Jeff Vail avatar
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    11 Nov 2010
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    It's like Santa put Analytics under the tree, but then said I had to pay $6k for it.  Bah-humbug.

    VT>> We decided that we'll seriously consider adding the Analytics to ALL editions. Over time, we will add additional Analytics features to the Standard and higher editions that will not be available in SBE and Community.
  3. KMac
    KMac avatar
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    I asked in the webinar if we could just purchase the analytics (for less than $6000, hopefully). So far the answer is no. Maybe if enough people respond to this post, we can get them to reconsider.

    Santa, er I mean, Telerik, what do you say?

    VT>> Santa listened:) As I said in my first post on this thread - we are making those changes because we are seeing the validity of some requests and not because of unexpected pressure and negative comments. Some changes we'll be able to consider and hopefully accommodate, others we won't.
  4. Jeff Vail
    Jeff Vail avatar
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    11 Nov 2010
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    Oh, and he swiped that plate of Granular Permission cookies I left out.  I really wanted those.
  5. Stacey
    Stacey avatar
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    11 Nov 2010
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    I am disappointed about the granular permissions too.  My question is what does page level permissions amount to?  Only frontend pages or would it still be possible to setup roles with permissions to only have access to certain admin pages for say the news module or events?  I know you would not be able to set them at a item by item level.

    VT>> You will be able to set permissions to both front-end and back-end pages. You will not be able to set them at an item level.

    That said, we had promised granular permissions to SF 3.x customers so that's another change we'll seriously consider. Chances are high that granular permissions will appear in the Standard Edition.
  6. Shawn Davis
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    11 Nov 2010
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    Overall happy with how they're conceptualizing the pricing, but it seems like it needs tweaking.

    VT>> Glad you liked it. We spent a lot of time to make things both simple and flexible and have a really good step-up model.

    My thoughts:

    They need to break analytics into standard and advanced somehow.  Any business needs analytics.  Standard analytics needs to be available to SMB & Standard.

    VT>> Read above. It's almost 100% certain that Analytics will be available in all versions so not much to worry about on this item.
    Standard I'm sure is where they did the most work trying to figure out the right price point - $1999 seems high for the jump from $499.  $999 or even $1499 would be better.  Maybe with less than unlimited support.

    VT>> Changing the price is not an option. $999 or $1499 does not make sense for us, especially in light of our good will to add additional features such as Analytics and Granular Permissions.
    As for the Pro editions - Does anyone know the difference between Standard and advanced workflow?  I don't have any commercial clients that could afford $8k just to get analytics and "advanced" workflow.  (Probably don't have any clients that would pay $8k period :-) )

    VT>> Basic workflow – you work with the workflows we ship out of the box. Advanced = you can go wild and create your own workflows, tweak existing ones, etc. We’ll soon make a video/webinar on advanced workflow to give you an idea. You will be blown away. That said, most customers don’t need advanced workflow. And if they do, then they would need to move to the Pro edition.

    And I assume for the community edition that "commercial use" would exempt any charity that could tolerate the functionality of CE?  How do we define commercial?

    VT>> I will try to put it in really simple terms. The basic idea is really simple and fair - if we don't make money, you don't make money. So, if you don't charge for the work done and you are not on salary in the given org amd your customer doesn't make money - Community edition is fine. Examples - you want to create a website for the boy scouts or your kid's soccer team, or you want to create a site for the local community, etc. If you are billing the customer for work and/or the customer is not a non-profit, you need one of the commercial licenses.
  7. Daniel Plomp
    Daniel Plomp avatar
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    11 Nov 2010
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    Well, very nice things are coming in SF4.0! Can't wait to start with it.

    Very disappointed about the granular permissions. This was something that was promised on the forum(s) for a long time. Much forum posts are about how to secure specific parts of your website, not only on page level.

    This is something you not only require for enterprise websites but for every kind of website, so in my opinion it should be in all versions.

    And that counts for analytics also...

    Please Telerik, deliver something more.... AS expected!

    VT>> Did you ever doubt it even for a second?:)

    Regards,
    Daniel
  8. Bryan
    Bryan avatar
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    11 Nov 2010
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    I was really looking forward to granular permissions too.  In fact I sold this feature to a client since it was one of their basic requirements.  I don't think they'll spring the extra $6k at this point.  I kinda feel like I've been chasing a dangling carrot.

    I think my answer to analytics will be to do it like we've been doing it.  There's no reason you can't put your GA code in your template and get your data the way you are used to.

    Everything else looks really cool though.

    VT>> I guess the changes we are considering for Analytics and Granular Permissions will make you another satisfied customer:)
  9. KMac
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    Agreed about being able to do things the old way with GA but Sitefinity 4.0 is all about doing things the new way. Having to manage analytics outside of the CMS for clients is just another extraneous item that takes up time that could be better spent elsewhere.

    In lieu of a chant button, I've created this sophisticated piece of HTML:

    <chant>GA in Sitefinity 4.0 Standard. GA in Sitefinity 4.0 Standard. GA in Sitefinity 4.0 Standard.</chant>
  10. bemara57
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    11 Nov 2010
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    I agree analytics should be included in Standard at least. I would even switch it out for multi-lingual support. I mean if your a multi-national corporation, you should be making some dough. But for analytics, everyone uses it. And besides, you need analytics to grow your business right? So it would be good for buyers and sellers.

    VT>> Read the other comments. We took your feedback into account. Expect a blog next week that summarizes all changes.
    Other than that, I was disappointed about the tight restrictions on concurrent users. I mean even with the hefty price tag of Professional, you only get 10. For the small business, I think 3 would have been nice. I mean at least 2 would have been workable.

    VT>> I know that more is always better but I think people don't really understand how much 5 or 10 concurrent users really is. Take Telerik as an example - we have over 300 people but we never have more than 10 concurrent users at all times editing content and making changes to the website. We believe that if you are running a website the size of Telerik with its features, the Pro Unlimited Edition is a pretty good option and will give you a lot of mileage. Can you give me a use case from your personal experience when you don't think the concurrent users would be enough? Would love to hear your thoughts.

    Also, 1000 content items is not much for small businesses, but I think at this point I may be asking for too much. If there was some archiving option, 1000 would be ok. But it seems that expired events and out-dated news would be counted for your live site.

    VT>> Can't promise you we'll do anything about this as there's a business decision and a technical challenge involved to implement a check what's active content and what is not. Doable, but not for the RC or the 4.0 release.
  11. mattc
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    11 Nov 2010
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    I'm still looking at this in more detail, and I couldn't get to the webinar until late but from the pricing page it seems fairly clear.
    I have to admit that I'm fairly disappointed at the loss of granular permissions and analytics in the standard version. These seem fundamental features to me that shouldn't have a $8000 tag on them.

    VT>> Don't be:) We'll fix this one.

    Sitefinity is stepping up to the nest level in the CMS world from 3.7 pricing wise and it needs to make sure that if the price tag is of that nature that it competes vigorously on feature set.

    VT>> That's the real problem guys. You don't see too many features on the check-list level and you don't see a big distinction between the feature sets of the different editions. We know that and we'll fix it pretty quickly. The decision that we had to make was the following - do we release some features at a low price and then increase prices every time we pull out a major release or add major new functionality OR we set the foundation once and then just focus on pumping out new features across all versions.

    We opted for the second approach. While it might not work in our favor at the moment and it creates a lot of the anxiety in the discussion, it will yield better long-term results for us and for you guys. You will get all updates, major or minor, as long as you maintain your subscription, you will get updates to all editions (we won't beef up only the expensive SKUs) and you will see only improvements in the value equation as time goes on. I am sure that this will give you a lot more predictability as well. 4.0 is a big change for us - in terms of underlying technology and in terms of business model and we wanted in both aspects to come up with a model that we will not change in the years to come.

    My personal quest is that Sitefinity be at home in the cloud. To see that load balancing only comes in at the Pro level is really worrying. Even small sites need to be highly available and be able to cope with very high loads.

    VT>> I'll disagree on this one:) If you need a load-balanced environment, it means you are running a pretty decent website and you are probably paying more than $8K in hosting alone every month. I would like to add a note here that Sitefinity 4.0 is MUCH more efficient in terms of resource usage and even on a single server it can scale insanely well.

    Even more worrying is the user limit. I'm confirming with sales at the moment but it looks like any users logged in count towards the total, whether they are admins or not? So if you plan to use the platform to develop an authenticated app, so where you let users log in to access content generated based on their user account, does this mean you will immediately need Pro Unlimited?

    VT>> You are right, everyone logged in the admin interfaces at any given moment counts as an admin user. Let's use a real example though - say you want your 5000 users to create news. In order to make it easier for them, and to make sure they don't sit in the admin logged all day, you create a small app that allows them to create the news offline, click publish, authenticate themselves and go live. How many times do you think more than 10 people would be doing this short (just seconds) operation at the very same time?

    I look forward to the discussion leading up to the release. 

    Matt
  12. bleutiger
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    11 Nov 2010
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    I for one am not happy with the pricing.

    As someone who works for a school district to have our price jump from $720 to $20000 is rediculous.  That is more than 20 times the cost!  And the concurrent users are set to rediculous numbers too.  They force you to go for the enterprise level even if you don't need that much.

    VT>> Please tell us about your case and why you need to move from $720 to $20K. As I said in an earlier comment, 10 concurrent users is a lot. Add some ingenuity around how you can take some of the publishing out of the system and make the operations short-lived, and the 10 concurrent users is not that big of a problem any more (check my comments in MattC's post).

    As far as my side projects go. The limitation of 50 pages will be a breaking point I am sure for a lot of my clients and jumping from the $500 version to $2000 just to get unlimited pages with no real benefit in increased functionality is crazy.  Again a quadruple cost increase?  Really?

    VT>> There aren't that many differences now. There will be in the future and you will start seeing those pretty soon. As I mentioned in another post, I'd prefer for you guys to complain today and then gradually make you happy through adding more value and not touching the price vs constantly adding value and adjusting the price accordingly.

    Are you guys going to tack on another 10 grand when you finally get a shopping cart module setup and how will that play into the number of pages?

    VT>> No, we are not. We will be adding all kinds of nice features across all SKUs without touching the price. That's the idea.

    There are a lot of small businesses that could have hundreds of pages of products but you are forcing them to fork out $2000 for unlimited pages and you will probably require more $$ just to have that shopping cart feature.

    VT>> Please give me an example of one such business that has hundreds of static pages (blogs, news, etc are counted as dynamic pages; meaning, a blog is two pages - one for the main feed and another one for individual posts) and it cannot afford a website for $2,000. I am ready to be proven wrong, but I need to see examples.

    Also agree with other posters hear about the granular permissions that were promised way earlier and the analytics as well.

    VT>> That one will be fixed.

    I also agree with dumping the multilanguage feature for Standard Edition to lower the price.

    VT>> That's another problem. Everyone is looking at the big frame just from their angle. All ideas mentioned on this thread make sense and we would like to accommodate them but many of them contradict each other. Many of those suggestions also go against the needs of many other customers. For example, multi-lingual does not matter for you but how about the website of a small restaurant in Texas where everything needs to be in Spanish and English? How about the site of a kindergarten in Switzerland or Belgium where it needs to be in several languages?

    Speaking of multi-lingual, we will do just the opposite - we will add support for up to 2-3 languages in the Community and SBE editions. I hope this makes even more people happy.

    Very disapointed....

    We are discussing the situation tomorrow in a meeting.  We may actually be going a different way after this.

    All that development time down the tubes if that is what is decided.  I'm all for making more money but 20 times as much money?????

    VT>> I hope it does not. As you can see we are willing to consider well thought out  arguments that take into account our position as well. If you think your case is borderline, just contact sales and talk about your situation.
  13. Jaime
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    Not happy at all. Concurrent users limited to 5 for standard? What's the point? I could live without the extra stuff in the professional editions but I need more than 5 and I need more than 10 concurrent users. I definitely can't afford professional unlimited. This is a spit in the face for existing customers.

    VT>> Please take a look at the example I gave to MattC. I would urge you to do the same - give me some more background on your project, your # of users, what they are doing, how often, etc. I will address each of those and hopefully give suggestions how each of the issues can be addressed. I am led to believe that many customers are scared that there is a concurrent user limitation without really understanding what this means, how it will affect them and what are the possible ways to solve the challenge.
    As of right now, I can't afford to upgrade to 4.0. I'll just stick with 3.7 until I find another product that fits my needs.
  14. Chris Cooper
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    Ok, really impressed with the functionality & Gui while watching the webinar early this morning (3am Australia). It really looks top of the range for any CMS platform I've come across.

     VT>> Really happy about that. That was our goal - to create a platform that is unmatched and it gives both end-users and developers amazing opportunities.

    My main concern is the pricing.. Majority of the clients I deal with are small businesses, with that in mind I should easily be able to persuade them to pay $500 (in the past getting them to pay $899 for standard has been very challenging). Don’t get me wrong it could be my salesman skills but when there’s a platform like e.g word press it’s a nightmare to get them to pay for it.

    VT>> I understand your point, but Sitefinity cannot be compared to Wordpress. They are jsut two different universes.

    The problem I see at the moment is that all the websites I build/design for a small business, i generally will have a couple forms and analytics running on the site. Both of these features in my mind are compulsory for any website in order to measure and get conversion rates for the business. Yes, i can create custom modules for forms but I want a CMS that makes my life & the clients life easier.

    VT>> Analytics will be available in all editions. If you need Forms, you can consider getting from the marketplace Basem Emara's wonderful extension. I am sure he will port it to 4.0 in some time. The Forms module will not be added to Community and/or SBE.


    Now to get small business client to pay an extra $1500 for this functionality just won’t happen, they’ll just find someone else to build a website on e.g word press for that amount and it can easily have that extra functionality at minimal costs.

     VT>> It's not that complicated to build your own basic forms module and not force your small customers to go to $2,000. I am sure you will greatly appreciate the ease with which you can extend SF 4.0. You can add some pretty solid capabilities to the system in very short time. 

    I really would like to be able to push Sitefinity to my clients, but persuading them to pay the extra $1500 for this functionality, I have my doubts I’ll ever succeed.

     

    Keen to hear from anyone else who’s primary target audience is the small business.


    Regards,
     

    Chris

  15. KMac
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    Since I started this post (albeit just to say that I was excited about Sitefinity 4.0), let's make sure we're all fighting for the items that benefit me most -- and by that I means not getting rid of multi-language, instead simply adding analytics to the standard version (and just because Jeff's posts were funny, let's add granular permissions as well) Mulitlanguage is an important piece that should not be removed from the Standard edition.

    And here's my two cents on the pricing overall. Yes the jump from 3.7 to the new equivalent seems a bit high (to be clear, from $900 to $2000, not $500 to $2000), but this product is vastly superior to anything else we've ever used and actually saves many, many hours of development time. If a client balks at the price increase, then the $500 version is available. If that same client still balks because of concurrent users tell them to use DNN and see where that gets everybody. Seriously don't do that. Really this is a great product and it's still at a fair price ($1499 would be fairer :). And I for one think that any one who has as many nice thing to say about a product as I do thinks Analytics should be included in a Standard edition.

    VT>> Just like you, I would also urge everyone to consider the whole value equation. You can't compare only price, or only features, or any single element for that matter. We'll be doing a lot of webinars in the coming months to show you how good SF 4.0 really is and how many great things you can do with it. I know that no one likes price increases but once you see how much more productive you can be and what amazing features you can add without even writing code, you will start looking at all editions in a very different way.

    Again, to reiterate:
    Multilanguage = Good. VT>> Check!
    Analytics = Good VT>> Check!
    Granular Permission = Funny, so Good VT>> Check!
  16. bleutiger
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    Just like to lend my support for Chris Cooper's statements above.  This is exactly the client base I serve in addition to working for a School District as my main job.

    I am trying to figure out how to tell my bosses tomorrow about how great this product this is and then tell them oh by the way the cost has increased to $20,000 to get the same ability to have our teachers be able to edit their web pages.

    VT>> It has not increased to $20,000 for existing customers so this is not a very accurate statement. All existing customers get very favorable upgrade terms. You get a free upgrade to Standard and you can upgrade your Standard 4.0 license to Pro at 50% off the list price. And that is ONLY in case you need to do that. Please share how many teachers you have, what they do with the site and how often they update the respective content and I will comment further.

    Or rather only 10 of them can be editing at a time.

    Thanks for that...

  17. bemara57
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    I actually thought this whole time Sitefinity would come out with modular pricing. Such as, add blogs, events, forms, etc to my Sitefinity, but I do not really need news or forums for this site for example. That way, you can cover the whole spectrum of needs vs pricing. It is going to be hard to please all without the modular approach, but I am hoping there is going to be some room for pricing tweaks before the release.

    VT>> It's another idea we entertained but it did not get much support from anyone internally, nor from customers, nor from partners. It would have made the evaluation and selection process quite difficult  and cumbersome. Moreover, such an approach is not that easy to implement from a purely technical perspective. We also wanted people to focus on the whole package vs try to find out whether blogs costs $200 or $375.
  18. Johnny
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    I agree with the community that the pricing is completly off and yet beautifully "calculated" by Telerik in terms of not only the prices, but the features included. I´ve have been bragging to my clients and potentiall clients about the new fantastic SF4 for about a year now, and one feels a little bit cheated. Sure, all the good stuff that i´ve been bragging about is there but it´s going to cost 20 000$. It was clearly naiv of me, but I was expecting the top of the line version to like triple in price, up to 3000$ at most.

    VT>> Everyone is commenting on the $20K price tag:) The big question is - is that what you really need or the big problem is that you are seeing a license that has 4 zeros instead of 3, regardless of what is in there? We did a lot of research and VERY few customers really need the Pro Unlimited Edition.

    As to the $3,000 price tag - I am not sure you can find a CMS that does everything that SF does and does it in the same way or better and costs that much.

    Small Business: I know I would have a hard time selling this. Btw customer, you have to keep track of you´re pages, content items, images and stuff. If you exceed? Well I would have to charge you 2000$ + and a small upgrade fee.

    VT>> I tried to explain this in another comment - 50 dynamic pages + 1000 content items is NOT a small number. That's a corporate website with 40-45 static pages, news with 400-500 items and blogs with 400-500 items. I mean, if a business has that much activity and is pushing out that much content, then probably they can make the big jump and spend $1499 on the higher version. Come on guys, I can't buy the argument that a decently sized business can afford to spend $1500 on a MacBook but can't spend the same amount of money on its public facing website.

    Standard: As many has said before me. No granular permissions and analytics?

    VT>> Will not be the case. Making some changes there.

    I think all the pages, items and CMS users limitations will be a huge mental block for most my customers. Pay 8000$ and still have a CMS user limitation? I thought such limitations was a thing of the 90´s and dodgy "but a site for a dollar" companies.

    VT>> There are no limitations in pages or content items for Standard and up. As to the # of users - I said it many times - those numbers are higher than you think and they cover the needs of 95% of our customers. It was never our goal to push everyone to PE Unlimited. Our focus was to make sure the Standard Edition is priced right and with the proper features.

    To end on a positive note. I think the whole community is really impressed by SF4 and a little proud to be a part of it. I know I am!

    VT>> We are very excited too. Once the initial mist clears up, I think customers will see that the changes are not at all that drastic or scary and that you will get a much better bang for the buck. I do understand though that the initial reactions are very natural when the list prices change so much and you are not fully aware of what's coming up ahead, what's the right license for you, what are the ways to accommodate some of the borderline cases, what are the upgrade options, etc.
  19. Steve
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    There's few things that bug me a lot, and I can see why they held out letting us know the details after the huge other thread.  But a lot of time and effort has been put into the resources letting us know the details and justifying the price points I highly doubt anything will change at all.  Especially because people can buy the upgrades now...

    VT>> We did not talk about prices because we wanted to give you the complete picture - what the product offers, how the different editions look like and how much it costs. Even today, the bigger part of the discussion is around the price of the PE Unlimited and not so much around the value of the product.

    1) Concurrent user scale: 1, 1, 5, 10, unlimited seems a little crazy.  What I cant find any info on is what they MEAN by concurrent (aside from the tooltip).  It seems to define it as logged in users with access to the backend, not as users IN the backend.  It should be more like 1, 3, 10, 25, unlimited or something, 1,1,5,10,unlimited is like DropBox level scaling.  So 1 person at the company edits a page, but since there's no workflow he yells over to the other guy to have a look at it.  Person 2 logs in, but oops he can't see it because the 1 user limit is in effect, he has to tell person 1 to log out.
      I've always been told inline page editing was going to be supported (so I can assign an admin edit rights but they cant get into the backend to break things)...is this now scrapped and that person counts to this 10 limit.  I don't understand why there even is a concurrent user limit...why does that matter.  The whole concurrent user thing sucks past small Business... :/

    VT>> Yes, people doing inline editing count. But how many of your small business customers have more than say 2-3 concurrent users modifying site content at THE SAME time? Very few I guess. The concurrent limit is the single best way to judge the scale of the website. You have a small website (in terms of pages and editors) - you pay little. You have a huge site with many concurrent users who are logged in all the time (still waiting to see a real customer example in this thread) - you pay more. There's nothing radical here.

    2) Content Item cap On top of a page cap...so what does this mean, there's a market for controls to delete old events, news, and blog posts?  Page cap should have been it and strip out analytics and localization.  A small business I assume would want to archive and have a system to manage files\etc...Who really cares about localization but a large business. I think Analytics was removed instead of Localization because it's way easier to just not include something entirely pluggable than remove a rather large piece of integrated functionality.  Lets say I make my own module based on News or Generic Content...will that count against the cap too?

    VT>> Incorrect assumption about localization. Many small businesses in the Southern part of the US, in Canada, in parts of Europe do care.

    3) Granular permissions...COME ON...this was promised from the get go.  I missed this part from the webinar so I'm super shocked if what's in this thread is true...so I can restrict granularity who can APPROVE a page, but not the controls that people can put on the pages or the areas in which they can modify?

    IMO there's one too many pricing levels...kill premium and re-scale small business and standard and drop ultimate down a bit.  I think this is how it went...they wanted high-end to be $20,000 so they started there with unlimited so they then had to figure out what to strip out to justify the different pricing levels all the way down to free.  So by the time they got to Small Business they were running out of things to strip out so that's where the max items came from.  I don't want to field calls from a client trying to have TWO people log in at once, then later when they run out of Content to add.

    VT>> Guys, if SBE is not good enough you can always use an alternative product. Some of you might remember that SBE is exactly what the community wanted several months ago. And it the parameters requested were along the same lines.
  20. Phill Hodgkinson
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    Proud to be part of something I can no longer offer to my clients? I have no pride in that, rather I look quite foolish and now have to scramble for an alternate solution (and ramp up my skill set) because the features I have been selling to my clients just became out of their price range, and by a long shot!

    Soooo disappointed! I'm seriously devastated as I had launched 5 sites using SF in the past year and not one of them would have happened if the price was$1,999 and they'd also be impossible with the 50 page limit at the $499 price point.

    VT>> Phil, please read my notes about the 50 page limit. Moreover, all of your customers would get a free upgrade to 4.0 Standard so I don't think we are mistreating anyone. All of your investments done so far are safe. Moving forward, you can decide whether Sitefinity is the best choice and what edition is best for your project but your existing customers are all set.

    I have no pride at all, just hope that for the sake of some of the good people at Telerik they haven't priced themselves out of business...

    VT>> If we had stayed with one SKU at $899 we would have priced ourselves out of business. And that would have been the worst outcome for everyone I guess.

    Phill 
  21. Steve
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    "Soooo disappointed! I'm seriously devastated as I had launched 5 sites using SF in the past year and not one of them would have happened if the price was $1,999 and they'd also be impossible with the 50 page limit at the $499 price point.

    I have no pride at all, just hope that for the sake of some of the good people at Telerik they haven't priced themselves out of business..."

    We always knew the price was going up, but yeah I don't think anyone thought to $8000-$20000...but think of it this way.  One enterprise license is 20 current 3.x licenses, and think of the scaling on that.  If you checkout the impressive client list, they have a ton of enterprise level companies, so it'll rapidly scale up (which is good for telerik, I like to see them do well)...but I will never be able to get a freelance job using the Premium or Ultimate license ever, and standard over small business cuts $1500 from the profit margin and still has limits with the SBE restrictions make it hard to recommend...Content Management System that limits content?

    VT>> The limitations were very carefully considered. As I said, we don't work with arbitrary numbers and when we set those limitations, we knew that our solution would cover the needs of 80-90% of the customers that fall into the given bracket. Once you start using 4.0 and your customers see it, I am very confident that they would not mind to pay the extra $1,500 on top of the SBE. If they don't see the value Sitefinity brings to the table and the level of end-user empowerment it gives, then perhaps Sitefinity is  not right for them.

    I remember trying to implement an internal DNN based site at one of the Big 3 automakers when I worked there...it was almost to the point of being laughed out of the room because it cost nothing (so it must be crap).  So I can understand why they want an edition that's priced high (and it really does have some sweet features that took a lot of time to build).
  22. Neil
    Neil avatar
    82 posts
    Registered:
    21 Oct 2006
    12 Nov 2010
    Link to this post

    Vassil I’m all for continued success you have a great team of professionals.

     

    I am a developer that has been licensed to Sitefinity for 2 years would love to become a partner but failing to find clients so this has never been an option. I would love to create a white paper saying how Sitefinity has helped save their company hundreds of hours a year with actionable and measurable metrics while receiving discounts reducing customer invoices. It’s not about making as much as possible for me it is about making a difference to the way we collaborate and Sitefinity 4 turns pain into pleasure.

     

    Totally agree Sitefinity 3.7 pricing for standard license today is cheap as chips and was given opportunities but what has been difficult in the past is not any easier.

     

    Why?

     

    I am not sales more substance and have to see it to believe it, having worked for corporate companies as a developer and seen the way information is abused, multiple versions of the truth WWF4 is a must for Standard license onwards and being used as a ransom.

     

    As for support for load balanced environments I have not tested a cloud installation but a post by Matt has concerned me enough to believe it is needed. Does support for load balanced environments make the cloud installation run in a degraded state?

     

    Analytics within Sitefinity is just a nice to have and not unreasonable to ask clients to create Google accounts.

    Concurrent licensing I hate to say It I would do the same. I have just upgraded clients QuickBooks server software that has 5 concurrent licenses to keep down cost. For mission critical applications they will pay it is already tried and tested and find the standard version 5 concurrent users acceptable as organisations wanting more concurrent for less will struggle to find anything that comes close.

     

    Small Business Edition is limited you get a fair evaluation, the increase to standard is acceptable would not see a need for granulised permissions at control level. Sitefinity is too good to give away.

     

    Why is there a need for a community version when there are free alternatives, adding hosting costs to a version that is so restricting does not make sense? The webinar mentioned live writer I would recommend Wordpress at this level now Microsoft is investing but I know Wordpress is not a Business option it is for hobby websites and compliment Sitefinty for even putting them on the radar.

     

    Conclusion

     

    WWF4 in standard please it should not be optional more of a requirement in today’s environment.

    VT>> You will be pleasantly surprised by the workflow that we call "Basic". It's better than the one in 3.7. Once the RC is out, please try it out and share your comments. The difference between Basic and Advanced is as follows -
    Basic - you can use and edit in Visual Studio the existing workflows
    Advanced - above + the ability to add new workflows + the ability to edit the workflows visually from your browser

    Azure Cloud installation concerns.
    VT>> You should not have concerns.


    Thanks for the renewal discount!
  23. John S.
    John S. avatar
    126 posts
    Registered:
    09 Aug 2004
    12 Nov 2010
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    Sometimes I think people are so used to getting everything free (usually just perceived free) in regards to software that they don't understand that there is actual cost (if not money, then someones time) . Perhaps it would be worth telerik sharing some ideas on how to sell the product to our customer base inplace of lowering the price. The easiest thing to do is ask telerik to lower their price but that might not be the best option for all of us.

    VT>> Glad that at least one person brought that up:) And we will prepare materials for you guys to show to prospects how Sitefinity is different and how it would add value to their business.

    I am all for lower prices but when a small business balks at $2000 for a really nice content management system then maybe they don't really need 'this' one. Why 'should' they have a top-of-the-line product if they want to pay for it at a price of their choosing.

    VT>> If people can't justify the purchase of a Standard Edition for $1,999 maybe then Sitefinity is just not right for them. You get TREMENDOUS value for that money and Sitefinity continues to be very competitively priced for what it offers. Once everyone gets to play with the RC bits, I am sure your opinions will gradually change and you'll see the tremendous possibilities it offers (any of the editions).

    Anyways, just an opinion.


  24. Phill Hodgkinson
    Phill Hodgkinson avatar
    362 posts
    Registered:
    10 Nov 2004
    12 Nov 2010
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    John, I don't think anyone wants anything for free, I know that I don't. However one of my biggest beefs is that today I can sell Sitefinity 3.7 to a client and tell them that they can have unlimited pages and editors for the great price of $899 (it really was a great price!), and they'd probably even pay a bit more. But tomorrow I now have to tell them the price for the same thing (because as far as they're concerned it's the same, they didn't ask for analytics, source code etc.) it's now gone up to $20,000. That's like a car salesman telling you, wait for the 2011 model of the Ford Focus, it's a great upgrade (but you've seen photos, it's nicer but it's still a focus so you expect a moderate price increase), and then when it's almost ready to ship they tell you that oh, btw, the price is now 20x higher and we put in a Ferrari engine that you didn't want or ask for anyway...

    VT>> Come on Phill, don't talk about the Pro Unlimited only as I am dead sure you don't need that SKU and that the Standard is more than enough for your customers based on what you've shared already. Yes, it's true SF 3.7 has an $899 price tag but that does not mean that it should be like that forever. I was very honest - $899 did not cut it for us. I know it works very well for everybody else but us.

    In the end Telerik needs to do what's best for them, but it leaves more than just a sour taste in my mouth... if they'd given me some sort of hint along the way that this was coming I could have saved face with clients and not wasted my time by further developing my SF skill set. Yes, I don't really need this one, not at that price...

    VT>> Your investments are not hurt in any way as you are getting a free upgrade. Btw, how many vendors can you name that would give you a free upgrade to a major version? And would give you 50% off if you want to upgrade to a higher license? I don't know how we can better show that we care about customers. As much as I would like to, we can't offer the Ferrari for free.

    Phill
  25. Jeff Vail
    Jeff Vail avatar
    14 posts
    Registered:
    06 Dec 2003
    12 Nov 2010
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    I hear ya, John.  We all know development takes a LOT of time and energy.  I appreciate that, I really do.  For that matter, I wish Telerik all the best.  They write great stuff.

    I think the problem is that while most of us expected a price increase, the jump from $899 to $19,999 (for a featureset we have become accustom to) is completely unworkable.  The way I remember it, they were going to switch to one edition (dropping community...citing making a more managable codebase) then, after much feedback, they said it would come back.  I surely didn't expect that they would go from wanting to manage just one edition to adding four more!  Especially with the features we have been using (and planning for) to be in the $20k version!  Who, in one version, ups their price 22 times?  That's nothing short of insane.  Yes, I know they are throwing in the source code, too, at that price, but personally, I plan on leaving Sitefinity core development up to them.  That's a bonus that is meaning-less to me personally.  I admit that my disappointment is due to my expectations, but, up until now, Telerik has always exceeded them.

    I currently have 5 Sitefinity sites under development, with about 15 more planned for the next 1-2 years.  I am now forced to either evaluate other products (which I admit, I hate to have to do), or plan on going with Standard and dealing with rolling my own analytics integration, working around the granular permissions limitations, and completely rewriting some of the site backend CMS parts for the front-end to get around the concurrent CMS user limitation.  Those options suck, because I picked Sitefinity so I could focus on my application and not spend time on the infrastructure.

    Gabe basically said Telerik *had* to have an expensive product to fit into a category so they would be considered by large enterprises.  Good for them, but for $20,000, I would expect something like single server or developer license with unlimited domains.  I'm pretty sure that's how SharePoint works.  Telerik could have the price tag they need, and we would get something to work with.

    VT>> :) You'd be amazed how much SharePoint would cost for an installation your size:) The $20K would not be enough just to get you started with the needed hardware.

    Do whatever you have to do to be competetive, Telerik, but I hope this isn't really it.  I feel burned.  Were you paying attention to the ZenDesk pricing fiasco back in May?  It was ugly.  And their prices *only* went up 300%.  I go to bed tonight hoping this was only a bad dream...

    VT>> My suggestion to everyone who needs PE Unlimited and is working for a school, non-profit, etc - get in touch with our sales team. We offer academic and non-profit discounts and we will take into account your situation. Maybe there's an intersection between your needs and what we can offer.
  26. bleutiger
    bleutiger avatar
    153 posts
    Registered:
    23 Oct 2008
    12 Nov 2010
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    I hope that Telerik is watching this thread closely and how many of their small business customers it looks like they are going to lose because of the limitations and unheard of price increase.

    VT>> We are. And we are considering some changes based on your input.  But I don't agree about the "unheard of" price increases:) For a small business, the increase is from $899 to $1,999 not to $19,999 as small business definitely don't need the latter. For some customers, it might be even beneficial as they could move from $899 to $499.

    I am sure they expected some kind of fall out.

    VT>> We did. And while we want to take into consideration all views, we can't appeal to everyone. If I did not firmly believe that what we are doing is right I wouldn't be answering these forum posts. I firmly believe that Telerik is being fair in the situation and that the pricing is by no means outrageous. It can be outrageous if you compare Sitefinity to Joomla or Wordpress but that's not an apples to apples comparison.

    I hesitate to say it but it appears as if they no longer want to be in the small business market anymore and are looking to just stay with the big fish.

    VT>> If this were the case, why would we care to have a SBE Edition or even a Standard Edition? Why bother having them and not just focus on the Enterprise accounts instead?

    I am hoping that someone sees the shock and dissapointment and gives me a better explaination than "we are including the source code".

    VT>> Today, it is the source code and the unlimited users. In a few months, it will be a bunch of other extra features.

    I agree with a previous poster.  I never asked for the source code.  The ability to customize sure but not see everything.

    I have developed 5 or 6 websites in the last year using a combination of the community edition and standard edition with several other clients lined up to buy the full version as soon as the site was up and had proved itself.  Now I have to recomend that they stay with SF3.7 and hope that I can find an alternative CMS that has a similar style and learning curve.

    Page limitations?  Who builds a website with the plans to only have a maximum number of pages

    VT>> Let's say a lot of people. Take a look at the different plans of any of the hosted CMS systems. All of them have similar limitations and it seems people do just fine. If you take a closer look, you will find that most of them are times less generous than we are. 

    ....you know what...I don't think  that these posts are going to do any good but I can hope.  I am also in the same boat as another poster;.  My feeling are based upon my expectations...but who could have expected this.  If I raised my prices 22 times what they are now I would be out of business tomorrow.

    I hope I wake up tomorrow with this bad dream behind me too.

  27. Steve
    Steve avatar
    3037 posts
    Registered:
    03 Dec 2008
    12 Nov 2010
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    "Sometimes I think people are so used to getting everything free"

    No, that's not it...we're just a little shocked is all.  We've been told it has X, Y, and Z for months so we've (well I've) been selling future projects on it based on those features and the assumptions that for probably a slightly higher price we'd get what we have now...now I know I've lost at least one because they need the premium (control permissioning and workflow) and they were only going to pay $3500 with the licensing cost coming out of that.

    VT>> Permissions is coming in Standard. Please read my note about Advanced and Basic workflow in another comment.

    It's still the best page builder\cms on the market, it's just going to be even harder to get those small to midrange projects since the small business license really wont cut it for most...it's the content item limit really, and every place has people who screw things up so no granular site-wide permissioning keeps us in the same boat we're in now.

    VT>> Thanks for the thumbs up. While we will not be adding granular permissions to SBE (even today it is not site-wide, it's per page), I would still once again like to stress that 50 pages + 1000 content items is not that little and it can give any small website great mileage. You jsut have to understand what those numbers really mean. Btw, if no one thinks there's a benefit to having the SBE, easiest thing in the world would be to trim it. I mentioned this earlier - this SKU + the limitations were born out of the requests and suggestions of customers focused on that market, not at the fancy of our bus dev tean.
  28. Truman
    Truman avatar
    7 posts
    Registered:
    12 Nov 2010
    12 Nov 2010
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    Was any of the dealers or the community consulted about pricing? Honestly a real question. Some may say it is none of my business.. but it IS my business!

    VT>> Of course. We couldn't ask everyone but we did talk to customers, to partners to users of other systems.
    It's true that barely anyone needs the source code because Sitefinity spent so much time making it extensible with its overly emphasized, wonderful API (it really is wonderful). So why on earth would I ever pay for the source code. Sitefinity should further extend the API if anything. I do need those features in the ultimate edition though. The source code really seems forced, as if it was stuffed there to justify the ridiculous price. I mean for that price, Kentico offers a server license with unlimited domains, websites, features, source code, and all! Sitefinity wants me to pay 50% of $20K for each additional domain??!

    VT>> That's not true. In almost all cases our pricing is more competitive than that of Kentico. You mention you can get "a server license with unlimited domains, websites, features, source code, and all!". That license costs $33,000. Say you are running a really big site and you need a farm with 2-3 servers - that costs you the 2-3 extra servers X $9,999 per extra server. You add $20-30K to that. We don't charge a dime in that case for the extra servers. There's many caveats guys when it comes to licensing and pricing and not always what looks cheaper on first glance really is cheaper. Our approach has always been to be transparent about it rather than start loading you with "hidden" costs after we get you with a low price. Btw, source code is just a small benefit, not the main benefit of the PE Unlimited. You will see a lot of great features added in the course of the next year.

    Perhaps I am being a bit harsh, but I really feel like I am being pushed out by a bunch of suits. Sitefinity is not the same, but hey maybe that was their intention. I would've had some respect if I was consulted or at least a survey was sent out. The community really should have gotten a sneak peak on pricing before announcing it to the world. This public confrontation didn't have to happen.

    VT>> It's not suits:) No one wears suits around here. As I said above, we did consult with a lot of stakeholders. As to the  survey, I'd disagree on that one. Every time we asked people "do you want this", the answer was "yes", regardless of whether people need it or not. Same for pricing - any time we asked people which price is right, everyone pointed out the lowest:) There's a big difference between what people say they need and what they really need and I think this is part of the reason for this long thread.
  29. John S.
    John S. avatar
    126 posts
    Registered:
    09 Aug 2004
    12 Nov 2010
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    My comment about the "getting things for free" was more of a general comment about the vast majority of internet users and not necessarily the people using this product. It is this perception that causes alot of financial attitudes to change not only in software development, but anything that can be digitized (music, movies, etc).

    From some of this thread and alot of the previous discussions concerning the dropping of a community edition it seems there was a lot of concern about a small business having to pay for a solution as compared to starting with a 'starter' solution and purchasing something 'if' they find they need it and price increases in the order of $500-$1500. Perhaps, the reintroduction of the community edition bumped some of the pricing up so that now a portion of users that can persuade businesses to pay for what they use now must support the ones that feel they shouldn't have to. I know this doesn't speak to everyone, but it does speak to some.

    'Personally', I think $2000 is a reasonable price to pay for this product and am very disappointed with the limitations placed on this level of product. If someone has a current license that allows an unlimited amount of pages, cms users, etc. I think it is very deceiving to be calling this an upgrade. I also don't think it out of line to ask for more features (workflow, analytics, source code)  based on the amount paid. But these are my opinions based on my own needs and maybe I am missing something. Perhaps telerik has good reason to have step-ups at these large orders of magnitude and I would welcome their help in promoting their product to my customers with actual reasoning and not a 'well look...you get analytics'

    VT>> Ok, I guess some data would help - over 90% of existing customers have and need less than 3 concurrent users. We decided to add 2 more to that so that there is a buffer. True, it is a limitation we are adding to the new licensing but it will not affect the majority of the customers. For all others we are offering an upgrade path and we are ready to discuss your needs further.

    I really want some reasons as to how to sell this product. I know it is at an RC level; however, the pricing has now been introduced and I have to decide if it is in my best interest to continue promoting it.

    VT>> Our hopes are that you will get more business from customers, not less. Just as Apple got more business from a more expensive phone - it offered unique capabilities and a really enjoyable experience and people were not hesitant to pay more for that.








  30. Simon
    Simon avatar
    9 posts
    Registered:
    25 Jul 2004
    12 Nov 2010
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    The upcoming Sitefinity release offers some really nice new features and some things that arguably should have been there all along now are (workflow in 3.7 is not ready for prime-time). I sold a client on Sitefinity 3.7 Standard mainly in anticipation of some of those 4.0 features. However, if I am interpreting this correctly, my client will be losing functionality by going to 4.0, namely being limited to 5 concurrent backend users.

    VT>> If you look at it that way, customers are going to lose compared to SF 3.7. As I said many times before - 5 concurrent users is more than what the majority of the customers need and we don't think it should affect most of you.

    During today’s webinar there was a slide illustrating that if you were to license all of the Telerik RAD Controls included in Sitefinity you would be out of pocket $3000, insinuating that right out of the box Sitefinity brings $3000 worth of value to your project - and perhaps it does, if you have use for all those controls in your project, if not then that value is unrealized. What this makes me wonder though, what was the purpose of that slide? Was it to blunt the impending price blugening about to be unleased, or was it to illustrate that as part of my Sitefinity purchase I am also paying for the RAD Controls? I have licensed the RAD Controls from Telerik for many years now, should I let that license expire when it comes due this next round?

    VT>> The purpose of the slide was to show you how much we are improving the developer productivity and not to hint that the provision of the controls and SDK is the reason for the price increase. It's part of the added benefits.

    If I was a cynical person I might think Telerik front-loaded the Sitefinity 4.0 licenses by selling people on 3.7. It's an easy sell, "buy now and you will get this great new version as part of your 12 month subscription coverage." It works out great for Telerik, as it gives them a captive user-base that is easily converted to their new licensing model. Only, and here comes the cynical part, what they don't say pre-sale is that the new model will actually be more restrictive and as I outlined above will offer my client less.

    VT>> Pretty much everything we've ever promised for Sitefinity 4.0 is in the Standard edition (especially after the tweaks from today) - more customizable workflow, granular permissions, forms module, analytics. The only difference is the user cap and I won't comment on that one any more as that's one of the things we are not ready to change because it does not make sense for us and does not affect most customers.

    I was really happy with Telerik as a company, but after today I feel like I’ve had the rug pulled out from underneath me.

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