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Community Edition removed from site?

118 posts, 0 answered
  1. bemara57
    bemara57 avatar
    135 posts
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    08 Apr 2010
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    ...OR give a free edition only to those who contribute back to Sitefinity with plugins, community participation, articles, etc.

    Telerik can even use the whole points system to give a "Lite" version that can only be purchased through points. It's a win-win for all and a pretty revolutionary type of community model. I would definitely support that.
  2. james
    james avatar
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    27 Apr 2009
    08 Apr 2010
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    Thank you for fixing my issue!
  3. Richard Warner
    Richard Warner avatar
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    08 Apr 2010
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    oh great I just added a form module that is dependent on 3.7 SP2. You would have thought that the WPI from Microsoft would at least be up to date.

    Shouldn't the modules dependent on specific service packs also be removed from the site if they are no longer compatible. I take it that upgrading from community to standard may also be an issue?
  4. Georgi
    Georgi avatar
    3583 posts
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    08 Apr 2010
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    Hi Anthony,

    You should only rebuilt the module in Visual Studio, with the version you need. Of course, the old references should be removed first. 

    Best wishes,
    Georgi
    the Telerik team

    Do you want to have your say when we set our development plans? Do you want to know when a feature you care about is added or when a bug fixed? Explore the Telerik Public Issue Tracking system and vote to affect the priority of the items.
  5. Markus
    Markus avatar
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    09 Apr 2010
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    Well here are my two cents on the pricing.

    a) Everyone who has ever used telerik Support knows that they are just simple the best. And I mean it. Never ever have I seen a firm doing so much for its clients way out of what you can expect. (Trust me I am a one man show doing from design, to programming, marketing, print everything myself - so I appreciate the support a whole heap)

    b) I mostly work for small firms that have very limited budgets. So if I build a site for 3000 USD allmost a third is eaten up by the CMS. So this leaves me only 2000 USD to actually work for the client.

    c) Sitefinity is the only CMS I have seen in 10 years of my business that can be handed over to the client without a one day course and refreshers as soon as they have not used it for 10 days.

    d) Some features are missing for me from a non developer must use it as easy as possible point of view.
    Here are two simple examples so you know what I mean

    - Target Link _blank (I know its not XHTML confirm but loved by many - So it could be turned on/off and not have to be implemented on every project

    - BackEnd Translation done by Telerik and not community

    So if the free Comunity version is gone this is what I think would be a price I would be willing to pay

    Free Version 
    ------------------------
    - No multi Lingual Support
    - No rollback
    - No workflow
    - Support only by community
    - Backend english only
    - limited to 1 user
    - limited to 25 page
    - limited modules (some modules)

    Base Version 399.- USD
    ------------------------
    - No multi Lingual Support
    - No rollback
    - No workflow
    - Support only by community
    - Maybe 10 support request to be handled by Telerik per year
    - Backend english only
    - all modules
    + Minor Updates .X are free
    + Major Updates X. will cost 199.- USD

    Full Version 999.-
    -----------------------
    + multi lingual support
    + rollback
    + workflow
    + support by telerik
    + Backend Translations by Telerik (Easy switch)
    + Minor Updates .X are free
    + Major Updates X. will cost 499.- USD

    Any price above this will cut my chances to be using Sitefinity by 99% and that would really make me sad.

    I have looked at many CMS and Sitefinity is just the simplest around. There must be a way off keeping the price low with more customers.

    Regards Markus
  6. Grant
    Grant avatar
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    13 Jan 2009
    15 Apr 2010
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    Thanks for the update, Vassil. It seems that the majority of the people here believe in the product and just want to ensure that they can continue to use it in a cost effective way.

    With that being said, I would strongly urge Telerik to consider still offering a free license for personal use. I use CE presently for my personal site (just a blog and career information) and much of what I have learned on my hobby site has made it's way into production on a Standard Edition installation for clients (we presently recommend SE for all clients). It's for this reason that a free version for developers with hobby sites is so very appealing. But, I cannot justify spending the money on a SE license just for my personal site. I understand that the license for CE was abused, but please consider ammending this license to still allow such scenarios for Sitefinity developers who use Sitefinity for their own hobby sites. I make no money off of my hobby site, but I do learn more and more about Sitefinity by operating it.

    Also, please consider the pricing for NPOs. My church uses Sitefinity CE and they have had a huge adoption of the site because of the capabilities of Sitefinity. Unfortunately, if the CE edition is gone, this will greatly affect their Web initiatives. The pricing doesn't have to be free for NPOs, but I believe right now you offer a 10% discount for NPOs and I don't think that will be significant enough to justify using the product, at least in my situation. Again I'd like to stress, that it doesn't need to be free, but for an NPO the price needs to be palatable.

    All in all, it's a great product and I truly look forward to being able to use it for many many projects to come. Thanks for your time.

    Grant
  7. bemara57
    bemara57 avatar
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    15 Apr 2010
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    Limiting the database on the free edition to only XML is another way commercial software handle this. But I'm sure Telerik knows what they're doing. The new site is great and confirms my assumptions that their focus is to be made off the vertical array of Telerik products long term rather than just a CMS. The CMS can be looked at as the gateway to Telerik rapid development. I hope the CMS does not become a bottleneck :)
  8. Cormac
    Cormac avatar
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    16 Apr 2010
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    Hi Markus, great post.

    However do you think a page limit is really the way to go?
    As we know websites need to be updated regularly to be relevant. This usually involves a blog or news/events section or similar. This is true for sites for personal use, micro business, SME or enterprises.

    I believe a page limit is an unworkable solution as this really is a 'necessity' and it wouldnt take many posts to reach your limit (you may have envisaged posts/news not counting as 'pages' so apologies if I misunderstood).

    This is why I believe simple module restrictions, and possibly template and user restrictions may be better. E.g.
    3 templates (may be difficult to implement)
    One user login,
    Pages module
    Blog or news module
    Newsletter (unless this is in line to be radically improved)

    Also would you think that 3 versions will require more maintenance.

    What do you think?
    thanks
    Cormac
  9. Markus
    Markus avatar
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    16 Apr 2010
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    Dear Cormac

    Thanks for the flowers.

    a) I think a page limit would be very easy to implment
    b) for a free CMS you should not expect anything at all. There are a lot of good free Blog tools
    c) Of course having more then one version is more complicated. Look at Apple they have only 1 phone to maintain compared to Nokia with at least 100 phones

    Base line would be that the free version is the simple tool to get Telerik and Sitefinity know. The bait (or if you don't like that term the trial version)

    After that any customer can feel free to upgrade once he/she knows that sitefintiy it the way to go.

    Regards Markus
  10. Cormac
    Cormac avatar
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    16 Apr 2010
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    The flowers were for Gabe!!!

    Well I think we're agreed that you need some sort of accessible/low cost access point to the product/s for smaller companies.
    I think it should be a reduced solution for which some fee is charged not unlike the split that Activecollab do.

    I suppose the concern is that telerik will slowly change their target market. i.e. they will slowly position themselves at a slightly higher level moving closer to another enterprise level CMS. Pricing would reflect this positioning change.
    I dont think this will happen, but I hope that servicing smaller companies is still part of the plan.


  11. Markus
    Markus avatar
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    16 Apr 2010
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    Dear Cormac

    QUOTE
    Hi Markus, great psot
    UNQUOTE

    That's why I said thanks for the flowers.
    -----------------

    I suppose the concern is that telerik will slowly change their target market. i.e. they will slowly position themselves at a slightly higher level moving closer to another enterprise level CMS

    This hits the nail right on the head. I am very afraid that this would happen. I have been in web design for over 11 years and Sitefinity is the first CMS that I can hand over to my clients without the fear that I have to give them a new course on every Monday or even after lunch because they are so complicated and overloaded.

    Sitefintiy is for me simple the best for endusers.

    ------------------
    I always wished that telerik would move in another direction. Judging from the sensational support they are giving I assume that they are afraid they get more customers like me and would have troubles keeping up the unbelivable high standard of support.

    That's why I had the idea that the free version would relay on Community Support. Base Version could have a limited number of incidents.

    ------------------

    Regards Markus
  12. Matt Swaffer
    Matt Swaffer avatar
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    17 Apr 2010
    17 Apr 2010
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    I got here because I am evaluating CMS's and Sitefinity was recommended.  I am in the position to recommend CMS's to small businesses and non-profits.  In addition, the company I work for uses Community Server but we aren't completely happy with the product.

    That said, I am stopping off here long enough to say I am moving on since there isn't a free edition for me to put into place.  I know there is a trial, but I actually have a hobby site that I want to put a good CMS on and I am looking for new ones to try out. 

    There is a reason that Microsoft gives away FREE versions of Sql Server and Visual Studio even though these products are very expensive.  The first hit is always free... :) 

    Love Telerik and all you guys do but without a free version I doubt I will ever find out just how good Sitefinity really is...

    Now back to my search... I really hope DNN isn't the best I can find! :)

    (Oh yeah.. kudos on the sign up process for the forums... 30 seconds indeed)




  13. Markus
    Markus avatar
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    19 Apr 2010
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    Here is a short matrix how I could imagine Sitefinity Community Edition Future

    www.marktold.com/ce

    Is it not funny how community members like me always hope to influence business decitions of firms with over 200 employees :-)  Nevertheless one can try.

    Regards Markus

    PS: Hope I will be able to use Telerik Produkts in the Future.
  14. oVan
    oVan avatar
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    23 Apr 2008
    20 Apr 2010
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    Here are my observations on all of the great comments above...

    * I live in a multi-lingual country. The best argument to ever win a client for Sitefinity would be that it has multi-lingual support baked in. So a Small Biz version really should have this.

    * I don't agree with the unlimited number of pages. If it is a small business, they've probably limited marketing resources and will not need hundres of pages. Set a limit to 25 or whatever. If they need more, they're probably not small biz.

    * Support: why would a small web developer (like me) need 10 incidents per Sitefinity install per year? Make it one or two incidents, there's always the community forum for most questions. One of the best things about all Telerik products is that almost all community/help information is found on the Telerik websites themselves. Every time I look something up in Google, I end up in the forums or documentation of Telerik. This makes (almost) every single customer value the great support we get from Telerik. So, don't cut on the range of support options, but push the community options harder than the direct support options (or limit them in number).

    * From my point of vue, I can agree with a price point of $400/$1000, but I don't think there should be a free version. There are loads of free cms solutions out there. Nobody will ever appreciate the true quality of Sitefinity if it is free. Free equals low quality in many minds. I had two potential clients for the full version, but in the end the deal was off because of license + development costs. The free version was not an option in their minds, an affordable version would have been ideal.

    Kind regards,
    oVan
    (Olivier Vanbiervliet)
  15. Markus
    Markus avatar
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    20 Apr 2010
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    Dear Olvier

    I live in Switzerland were german, french and italian is spoken. If I am small biz I would expect my business to be local so in one of the 3 languages. Otherwise an extra 600 USD for a CSM is not that much if you think of it as a 3 year investment (or say 17 USD a month extra)

    So the upgrade is even for a small biz firm afordable.

    ---------------
    About the community support. If you look at how many posts have anwsers from telerik employees than you will notice that the community is realy backed by telerik in a huge way.

    So when I talk about community I talk about pure community - no telerik involvment.

    ---------------
    This said I think having a free version could make sence to attrakt customers, make sitefinity know so it might be recomended if someone needs a very good CMS. Alos it could make the community bigger.

    -------------

    I can live without a free version. Just hope I can still aford to use it for my SmallBiz clients. And don't forget - neither you nor I are on the telerik board of directors. So who are we to talk here :-)

    Have a nice day. Seems 4.0 Beta is on its way. Once we checked this we might have an total new view. Looking forward to it.

    Regards Markus
  16. Michael Josiah
    Michael Josiah avatar
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    20 Apr 2010
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    The solution here seems like a no brainer to me. Allow the free version only for Charities and non commercial use. A license key will be required for the free version which locks the registered URL  to the key. The keys and their registered urls are stored by Telerik, which has the obvious effect of deterring customers from removing the sitefinity logo as the site can be reviewed by Telerik at any time. Free license keys can only get community support via the forums.

    Really does seem easy to me. Just implement a license key which has a 1:1 relationship with the registered URL. Am I missing something here, just seems like the correct solution.
  17. JoshAnderson
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    20 Apr 2010
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    I feel it is a mistake to not provide a community edition. If you look at the widespread use and growth of DNN, most of this can be attributed to the community edition of the software. Thousands of modules and skins are available to extend the app and with Telerik no long providing community edition, this will prevent such growth.
  18. David
    David  avatar
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    21 Apr 2010
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    I have done two Large Business sites, and two community sites with Sitefinity.  Currently I am getting ready to upgrade one of the community sites(a site I am part owner of) to the commerical version, next month we will start making a profit I hope.  The other community site is my own site. 

    I try to push Sitefinity to the designer I do business with, however she does not want to pay the price since I created a nice simple CMS in asp.net.  This was before I knew about Sitefinity, sorry I did that now.  Sitefinity is easier to develop for.  She finds the custom cms good enough for small businesses.   In todays market where we compete with other CMS systems like Wordpress, we have to offer a site for around $1200 dollars to get business.  Most of the small companies in my area are less then 50 employees. 

    I have a non-profit project in the pipeline who wants to use Sitefinity, but wants to use the community edition.  I attempted to push them to the commercial verstion for the extra features. 

    $900 dollars is a great deal for what you get with Sitefinity, however raising the price will not sale more copies.   I will need to see 4.0 to see if it is worth more than 900. 

    With today's market place, people will just go back to their own home grown CMS system or some free PHP system for small business.  I have no problem convincing a coorporation to move to Sitefinity, but a small business is another story.     

    I think you need to put clearer rules out their for what the community edition can be use for.  Like you can not use it for a web site that is a commericial business. 
  19. Steve
    Steve avatar
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    21 Apr 2010
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    I ran into this problem last week trying to get a bid..."why pay $900 when we can use wordpress for free...it's a 'CMS' "
  20. Markus
    Markus avatar
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    There is one more thing that usually can be a killer.

    Some of my clients have more then one core business. Lets say they sell cars but also have a carwash.

    It is the same customer but two aboslute different website so this would result in 2x 900 USD for the customer. Even if I can convince them for one copy it will near to impossible for the second one.

    Looking forward to 4.0 and trust that Sitefintiy/Telerik will still be the future for my customers and business.

    Regards Markus
  21. David
    David  avatar
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    The solution here seems like a no brainer to me. Allow the free version only for Charities and non commercial use. A license key will be required for the free version which locks the registered URL  to the key. The keys and their registered urls are stored by Telerik, which has the obvious effect of deterring customers from removing the sitefinity logo as the site can be reviewed by Telerik at any time. Free license keys can only get community support via the forums.



    Above, might be a good ideal. 
  22. Chris
    Chris avatar
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    27 Apr 2010
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    I know I'm late to the suggestions here, but one thing that was tough for me to swallow was that the license was per domain, and it was non transferrable (at least according to the salewoman I spoke to).  The problem I have is that I have a few entreprenueral clients that come up with ideas, some work, some don't.  I'd love to have an easy to use CMS where we could get an idea rolling.  I can shell out the $900, but not if after a few weeks we find out the project is a dud, and we've completely lost the $900 license.  If we could use it on other projects, that would be great. 

    I also have some not for profits that'd I'd love to see a free or deeply discounted pricing.  Since a lot of the work I do for them is pro bono, I don't want to shell out the cash myself, and would rather use one of the free products out there. 

    I fully understand the need to make money, I have a business to run myself :)  But there has been some great products out there that have seemed to thrive with a free entry product (e.g., Umbraco).  Telerik has some of the most highly respected support, so why not try to captalize on a support model vs. a licensing fee for your CMS product?  After all, if you rely on the product, all it takes is for someone to come along with a better product and your done.  Better to have a larger user base and following with an in-flux of support, suggestions, and thriving community (who can help you guys grow and market your product for you) .  Sure, you might think you're losing revenue by not getting some of those "leechers" to pay, but trust me, they ain't paying no matter what.  They'll go find a free product. 
  23. MB
    MB avatar
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    27 Apr 2010
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    Regarding the transfer of licenses... yes, I've encountered the same issue when discussing the use of Sitefinity with a customer who operates as an event promoter. This customer may have many events on the go, and each event may have its own unique domain... so that it presents an independent presence. However, each event may well be a one-off thing... and if it's not a success, then it may well never be repeated. Hence, there was a lot of resistance to spending money on a license that might be a throw-away item (and they didn't want to use url redirections) and they said no... and we went another way.

    I would imagine that Telerik could manage this issue with some sort of license registration and activation service... where a site registers its license with a Telerik webservice, when it starts up. This allows Telerik to check the license against the registered domain. Obviously, that then opens the door for transferring a license, as Telerik can verify that a license is only being used for the currently registered domain, and not for multiple domains.
  24. David
    David  avatar
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    27 Apr 2010
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    Markus
    About the community support. If you look at how many posts have anwsers from telerik employees than you will notice that the community is realy backed by telerik in a huge way.
    So when I talk about community I talk about pure community - no telerik involvment.

    Hi Markus,

       You have a good point here.  That is where the community needs to step in, and post answer to some of the simpler question.  I try to post if I see something I am in the know about, other than that I to busy coding controls for sitefinity sites. 

    David 

     
  25. David
    David  avatar
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    27 Apr 2010
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    Hey Gabe,

      Here is my input for what the community version (free to non-profit and developers for their personal business/blog  who submits one control to market place).  Cost for small business $399
      -  20 pages limit
      -  5 Admin, my experience is about 3 admin roles on my on custom CMS
       - leave the public roles for sites with membership forums, maybe a max of 100 public members
       -  Limit the blog to one blog
      - no versioning or workflow
      -  usable by small business for $399
      - usable by non-profit with non-profit id
      - No Newsletters
      - Limit Events to 10
      - No upload of Controls

      What CMS is over $10,000?  I guess that is why I have never heard of them.  I notice someone else mention no custom module support.  I think custom modules should be allow to be plug in via the web.config.  This will encourage more developers to create modules. 

      
  26. Chris
    Chris avatar
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    28 Apr 2010
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    There are lots of CMS softare that cost over $10k.  MOSS can be in the millions for large organizations, SiteCore, Vignette etc.  Even open source software like Alfresco can be tens of thousands in support.  But with all due respect, Sitefinity isn't in that class of software, but I think the comparison was made that Sitefinity have a lot of attractive features that are more polished/easier to use than in some of those larger products. 
  27. Steve
    Steve avatar
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    28 Apr 2010
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    As a user of alfresco btw...their support is HORRIBLE compared to telerik on their worst day.

    It's like having an IM conversation on their ticket system where every 2-3 days you get a one sentence response which usually has nothing to do with your last message or the resolution of the ticket...
  28. Chris
    Chris avatar
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    28 Apr 2010
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    Haha, that's great, Steve; I'm not looking forward to that .  A company I work with is migrating from CMS 2002 to Alfresco.  Unfortunately we had zero say in the matter, and since the powers that be say we're supposed to be doing all things J2EE, so that's where it's landed.  There's also a IBM Portal implementation, along with a WSS 3 setup, all within one intranet. 

    Outside of them, I'm looking for a lightweight CMS to help some nonprofits and other small business manage their own websites, which explains my interested in Sitefinity.  In the case of the non profits, I was considering even buying them a Sitefinity licensing, but image how upset I'd be if they didn't like it and I couldn't transfer to license to another project or even just myself!
  29. David Underwood
    David Underwood avatar
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    03 May 2010
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    I have been trying to standardize on a single CMS to use for both businesses as well as the non-profit work that I do on my personal time. I have many non-profit sites and until recently it has been easier for me just to roll them using Wordpress with custom themes especially with the large plugin base available. I thought I had found something excellent in Sitefinity as it could be used not only for business projects (standard to enterprise) but also for small businesses who couldn't afford a CMS and the non-profit applications. I hate to see the community edition is being dropped. I am really not sure where to go from here as I'd once looked at Umbraco for this solution but I'd rather stick to one singular platform. Hopefully we can see a more tiered approach to licensing for Sitefinity 4 which will allow for usage in these differing environments.
  30. Chris
    Chris avatar
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    03 May 2010
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    David,

    I'm in exactly the same boat.  That holds true for my personal blog site as well as some nonprofits.  It really just comes down to the amount of time I have to spend to learn/master a product.  I'd rather not have to have three different products if I didn't have to. 
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